Talk:Mark Sykes (footballer)

Reversion of valid information

For reasons I don't understand, User:GiantSnowman is reverting valid, cited information, that add context to the information about Sykes' first goals.

My wording:

He scored his first goal early in his first full season at the club, against Millwall in a first-round match in the EFL Cup on 27 August 2019, and his first league goal in a 2–1 victory over AFC Wimbledon on 29 December 2019.[reference]

His wording:

He scored his first goal for Oxford against Millwall in the EFL Cup on 27 August 2019, and his first league goal in a 2–1 victory over AFC Wimbledon on 29 December 2019.

It's evident from the information on the Soccerbase page that (a) this was Sykes' first full season and (b) that his goal against Millwall was in the first round of the EFL Cup. Why remove valid, cited contextual information and make the article less informative?

GiantSnowman also states that the generic Soccerbase reference that I added as an external link already exists in the article. It doesn't – the Soccerbase links elsewhere in the article are for specific seasons, whereas the link I added is generic for the player. Such links appear conventionally in most of the footballer player articles that I've ever looked it. Dave.Dunford (talk) 10:24, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Ok, let's break it down:

• "It's evident from the information on the Soccerbase page that this was Sykes' first full season" - where is it evidence, where does it clearly and explicitly say that on the Soccerbase page? WP:OR applies. Either find a better source which confirms exactly that, or leave it out.
• "It's evident from the information on the Soccerbase page that his goal against Millwall was in the first round of the EFL Cup" - where is it evidence, where does it clearly and explicitly say that on the Soccerbase page? WP:OR applies. Either find a better source which confirms exactly that, or leave it out.
• Soccerbase external link - see WP:ELNO. What does this add beyond what is already present in-line? Nothing.

GiantSnowman 10:34, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

The Soccerbase page in question states that Sykes started at Oxford on 2 January 2019, and shows his first goal on 27 August 2019. It's hardly "original research" to deduce from that that the goal was "early in his first full season", unless you're suggesting that I need to explain (and cite) in the article how UK football seasons work and their traditional start and end dates, just to justify a completely uncontroversial statement. Likewise, the fact that the Millwall game is the first EFL Cup fixture mentioned in the chronological list of fixtures on the Soccerbase page clearly shows that it was the First Round of the EFL Cup. Or again, do you expect me to find a citation for the self-evident fact that the first EFL Cup fixture in a season is the First Round of the EFL Cup? It would simply add clutter to the article. You are stretching WP:OR beyond all reasonableness. WP:OR applies to "anything challenged or likely to be challenged", and notes that "the statement "the capital of France is Paris" needs no source, nor is it original research, because it's not something you thought up and it is so easily verifiable that no one is likely to object to it". The information about Sykes is similarly uncontroversial, and I honestly don't understand what you think you're trying to achieve by removing valid, cited, contextual information and deliberately making the sentence drier and less informative.

The Soccerbase link shows the player's career stats without reference to a particular season. All of the links inline refer to particular seasons. It's standard (though not mandatory) to have the Soccerbase template in External links for footballer articles, and it's useful not to have to hunt through the references to find it. Such links are included (with provisos) in the standard footballer article template at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players. I'm familiar with WP:ELNO and I can't see anything that applies (other than the suggestion that links from references should not be repeated, which I've explained isn't what's happened here). Dave.Dunford (talk) 11:11, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

At what date in the season does it move from "early" to "late", and why? Why is it an important detail to include? The Soccerbase page only includes games that Sykes appeared in - it would not include earlier rounds of cups he did not. And again, why is it an important detail to include? GiantSnowman 11:22, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

It was in the first month of the season. I don't think it's controversial to call that "early" (I repeat: do you really think the article would benefit from me explaining how UK football seasons work, just to justify one uncontroversial word?). Had it been in October I wouldn't have used the word "early". When did I say it was important? I didn't give it a huge amount of thought when I wrote the sentence, to be honest, but I guess I included it because otherwise it might suggest that Sykes' goalscoring record was somehow inadequate (i.e. that he didn't score for a whole season after joining, which isn't the case). Dave.Dunford (talk)

Actually, you're right (in one aspect) – Millwall was the second round of the EFL Cup. I apologise. My bad. Dave.Dunford (talk) 11:38, 31 December 2019 (UTC)