Talk:Marieval Indian Residential School
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A news item involving Marieval Indian Residential School was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 25 June 2021. |
This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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Concentration camp
[edit]quote from a First Nation leader described this as a concentration camp. i wonder if this will change the narrative. im not going to categorize it as such, at least yet.(mercurywoodrose) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:5FA1:61B0:B509:71A2:9022:160D (talk) 17:58, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
- This may be better to discuss on the Canadian Indian residential school system article, though they already have many references to genocide there. 188.148.229.11 (talk) 17:59, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
Crooked lake board school
[edit]Searchign this document for "crooked lake boarding school" will return many details on the initial school. Not adding it myself as the nb in the history section regarding the first school is quite complicated. --- Possibly ☎ 20:23, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Were the unmarked graves on school grounds or in a cemetery near the the school grounds?
[edit]This CBC article says that the bodies were discovered in a cemetery that was near the school. It is also less clear about whether it is known that the Catholic Church had in fact removed any markers, or if that was just speculation on Chief Delorme's part.Fullmetalalch (talk) 00:29, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
- When I wrote that part in the article, I was using sources from CTV News and Global News that both had direct quotations from Chief Delorme:
- CTV News: "The Catholic church representatives removed the headstones and today they are unmarked graves"
- Global News: "In the 1960s, the Catholic Church removed the headstones and today, we have over 600 unmarked graves"
- 188.148.229.11 (talk) 17:55, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
Use of term "mass graves"
[edit]Though the media is using the term, zero evidence has been presented thus far to even suggest this was a literal "mass grave" as opposed to a cemetery. A mass grave is one large pit dug to inter dozens/hundreds/etc of bodies at once and they are placed beside and/or dumped on top of each other. Discovering bodies in the same area does not a mass grave make. The WP entry, however, presents this as factual. I'd suggest changing the term to "burial ground" or something similar until more details emerge. 216.154.4.118 (talk) 14:32, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
- Did you even read the article? The term used is "unmarked graves", so I'm not sure what your point is. freshacconci (✉) 14:41, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
- In fact, a quick scan of the sources used in the article show the media mostly using the term "unmarked graves" as well, so your concern is based on nothing really. Neither this article, nor the sources, use the term "mass graves". freshacconci (✉) 14:44, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
- There was one mention to "mass graves" in the lede and I have removed it. 188.148.229.11 (talk) 17:52, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, this was what I was responding to. Though, further to the other replies, mass graves is still used frequently in many media references.
216.154.4.118 (talk) 00:10, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
Unclear
[edit]The article says mass graves were discovered and then just goes to reactions about how families are being supported. Its not really clear what the graves or bodies are for or what they mean, is it simply the fact that people were (i assumed dumped in the graves), maybe some context that people have been searching for loved ones or something — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:53A1:E001:98AF:3FB3:FF75:4AFA (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that some important information is missing although that may also be because it's recent. There is no mention of how many were estimated to be children or of burial dating estimations, to have an understanding of the context, the link to the school and the period. —PaleoNeonate – 01:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Not a mass grave
[edit]"The Cowessess First Nation says 751 unmarked graves have been uncovered on the grounds of a former residential school in Saskatchewan." https://winnipeg.citynews.ca/2021/06/24/remains-saskatchewan-residential-school/ They never said mass graves. The School Opened in 1899, closed in 1997. 98 years, 751 unmarked graves, 7.7 per year on average. And the Spanish Flu pandemic has to be taken into account. Death rates back then were high. greater than 250 per 1000. There is no evidence of only child graves. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041751/canada-all-time-child-mortality-rate/ This article needs facts. There is a grave yard with missing head stones and decayed head stones. So far no "mass grave".
- Nowhere in the article does it say there was a mass grave. 188.148.229.11 (talk) 05:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
Physically dominating
[edit]The article quotes the source that correctly mentions it. Perhaps some sources also offer better precisions. Although illegal today, corporal punishment was common in most schools for a long time in Canada. —PaleoNeonate – 01:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
- I am an eye witness to a child getting "the strap" on the hands in 1969 in Cleveland Ave Elementary school in Riverview New Brunswick. The child's name was Rodney Simpson. Corporal punishment was common in most schools for a long time in Canada, and how. Punishment was not reserved for the indigenous. It was dealt out to everyone, regardless of race. So much for physical domination as a issue.
- Please prove through WP:RS, otherwise WP:OR. Albertaont (talk) 02:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yes. The point is the not specific case above, rather the policy that enabled it accordingly:
- "Toronto Trustee William Ross sought to change that practice. An elementary teacher in the 1950s who left the profession for a business and legal career before being elected to the board in 1961, Ross felt that he had “misused” the strap, and from that time onwards he favoured its abolition. In January 1969, he put forward a motion that Toronto schools “refrain from administering corporal punishment at all times.” The motion was tabled and never reintroduced." https://www.edcan.ca/articles/banning-the-strap-the-end-of-corporal-punishment-in-canadian-schools/
- https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/School_corporal_punishment
- "In a 6-3 judgment, the court upheld the so-called spanking law, first enacted by the federal government more than a century ago, which permits the use of "reasonable" physical force to discipline children."
- https://www.corpun.com/cad00401.htm
Influenza Theory (as yet unproven)
[edit]review WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:SOAPBOX and WP:SYNTH. WP does not editorialize, speculate, or come up with "plausible" anything.
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Has anyone investigated or consider the possibility that the spanish flu so dominant around 1918-1920 killed off many of the inhabitants, perhaps so many at once that the school (or other schools operating at the time) was overwhelmed? The flu of the time attacked the youngest most fiercely and killed millions worldwide. There are unmarked graves around the world from that period of time (generally 1918-1920). --2600:6C48:7006:200:B056:6066:1296:EF0B (talk) 01:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC) It would not have to be the Spanish flu -- it was common for children to die of infectious diseases until the relatively very recent past, and it was even common at times of pandemics to use mass and/or unmarked graves -- as happened in New York City during Covid. My own uncle died in one of the many polio epidemics and was buried in what was until recently an unmarked grave (though the family had his name carved on one of the gravestones in the family plot -- where he is not interred). Any large-group living arrangement was especially susceptible, as we saw with military barracks during the Spanish flu and long-term care homes during Covid. BTW, as I write this, I am within a couple of miles of the previously unmarked mass grave (a genuinely "mass" grave) to Irish victims of the many diseases that swept the emigrant ships arriving in the mid-1800's. Unmarked graves are common in Canada where -- beyond Montreal, Vancouver or the Golden Armpit -- the population is sparse, services limited, and accessibility may be problematic even today. And just while I'm here, we also didn't (don't?) bury our dead in winter -- those little houses by our cemeteries are for when the ground is frozen. alacarte (talk) 02:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
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Cause of death
[edit]Is there any media report about cause of death? --2402:3A80:1113:32A5:9C69:6192:35A6:4820 (talk) 08:23, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
- Can't imagine there would be. I haven't heard anything more than that ground-imaging radar has discovered what they're pretty sure are many graves. That's a very long way away from actually digging them up to verify that, never mind attempting autopsies on decades- (or century) old remains, never mind the cataclysmic outcry that would result in anyone being so wooden-headed as to try it. What conceivable benefit to the authorities would there be for them to order it? Ravenswing 13:34, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
- Having search through various articles, I have yet to see one that has identified causes of death for the victims. Some articles have alluded to bad sanitation and illness, but I don't believe that there has been any autopsies to determine causes of death. Perhaps in time with more investigation we will have causes of death. Jurisdicta (talk) 07:07, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- unless there's been some major developments that have been hidden from the public (I HIGHLY doubt it), they have not exhumed any bodies from any residential schools for any purpose. That being said, There's the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada's report on the matter which included research on recorded causes of deaths as well as oral histories on the matter.
In nearly 50% of the cases (both in the Named and Unnamed registers), there is no recorded cause of death. From those cases where the cause of death was reported, it is clear that until the 1950s, the schools were the sites of an ongoing tuberculosis crisis. Tuberculosis accounted for just less than 50% of the recorded deaths (46.2% for the Named Register, and 47% for the Named and Unnamed registers combined). The tuberculosis death rate remained high until the 1950s: its decline coincides with the introduction of effective drug treatment. The next most frequently recorded causes of death were influenza (9.2% on the Named Register, and 9.1% of the deaths on the combined Named and Unnamed registers), pneumonia (6.9% on the Named Register, and 9.1% of the deaths on the combined Named and Unnamed registers), and general lung disease (3.4% on the Named Register, and 5.5% of the deaths on the combined Named and Unnamed registers).
- That's about 70%. I don't know of any information about the breakup of the other 30% as the TRC report didn't seem to specify. Fullmetalalch (talk) 06:05, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- I should make it clear that the above quote is for all residential schools in Canada. The cause of death at Marieval might differ somewhat, but for now, this is the best information we have.Fullmetalalch (talk) 06:32, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- That's about 70%. I don't know of any information about the breakup of the other 30% as the TRC report didn't seem to specify. Fullmetalalch (talk) 06:05, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
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