Talk:Marie Warder

This article was nominated for deletion on 19 November 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

This page was proposed for deletion by Timneu22 (talk · contribs) on 20 May 2010 with the comment:
CSD A7
It was contested by MuZemike (talk · contribs) on 21 May 2010 with the comment:
Declining A7, assertion of importance is there.

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography

Journalism

	Journalism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Literature

	Literature portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Literature on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LiteratureWikipedia:WikiProject LiteratureTemplate:WikiProject LiteratureLiterature
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Women writers Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women writers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women writers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women writersWikipedia:WikiProject Women writersTemplate:WikiProject Women writersWomen writers
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Untitled

I believe that, in the same way as Hemingway and Steinbeck's stories reflect actual experiences and incidents in their lives (eg. the mother who wore glove in Steinbeck's "East of Eden" (because Hemochromatosis had crippled her hands and made them excruciatingly painful) Marie Warder's background is reflected in her books. I believe that an article about her is important because of the miilions around the world who will live because she made the world aware of Hemochromatosis (please see Wikipedia articles headee EUGENE BOYKO and TOM WARDER. (NB. I tried to create a better link to the latter reference but was unsuccessful.)

If my article is accepted, I plan to add a reference to Nancy Steinbeck's book - The Other Side Of Eden - in which she has a link to Marie Warder.

Murella (talk) 16:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Possible deletion of article by "Murella"

I believe that all the info contained in "Murella's" article can be substantiated and, as one whose family has benefited immeasurably by Marie Warder's work, I do not want to see the that story go off into the "twilight zone!" Furthermore, as I helped with the set-up of the article about her husband, Tom Warder, I think I know the ropes and would like to tackle another Marie Warder article, myself.

How do I do this? I cannot very well write a new article while the other exists, but there is no way I can establish what actually remains of it. Does that very inadequate stub first have to be erased? And how do I take advantage of images which are in the Commons? (For instance the one of Tom Warder.) Simonter (talk) 21:00, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given the state of affairs of the Tom Warder article (replete with uncited facts, citations which fail to verify the facts in hand, and peacock terms), I don't think the author of that article would be the best choice to improve this article. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Journalist

Several references have been made to "The Journalist" a work by Judy Lloyd, a reporter for the Ficksburg News. Can anyone provide any details for this work -- is it a non-fiction book, a novel, an article in a magazine? If this is to be used as a source, some publication details are necessary to allow others to check the source for verification. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

Regarding this edit:

ABC BookWorld is a site that allows authors to publish their own biographies. As such, it is not a reliable source.
In the text below:
Before her books on haemochromatosis, she was already the author of 13 very successful novels; three of them used in South African schools.<ref>"Storm Water" and Samaritaan van die Sahara" in Afrkaans and "Penny of the Morning Star", the latter having been comissioned for use by students studying "English as a second language." </ref>

the "reference" was not a reference at all. It did not verify the fact in question, but only expanded on the fact by providing the titles of the books. There is still no verification that these books have been studied widely in South African schools, or that the last book was commissioned by anyone.
In the text below:
Mary Morrison Webster, book critic of the Sunday Times, once recorded among her recommendations, two books written “in time for Christmas—in two different languages.”<ref>"Hart Sonder Liefde" and "Penny of the Morning Star - the story of a cub-reporter"</ref>

again, the "reference" is not a reference, but an expansion of the fact. A true reference would provide the date and publication details for the quote in question (the template {{cite news}} can be very helpful here). Since there are many "Sunday Times" publications around the world, a note as to which specific Sunday Times contained this quote would be useful.
In the text below:
The Bronze Killer is recommended by professionals around the world.<ref>Clement Finch - Western Journal of Medicine</ref>

the "reference" given, a journal editorial published in the Western Journal of Medicine and available here, does not even mention The Bronze Killer as a book (although the author does use the phrase "bronze killer" to describe the disease), so it is impossible to use this source to verify the claim that the book is recommended by professionals around the world.

As much as I believe Ms Warder is notable and deserving of a Wikipedia article, if these are the best references that can be found, perhaps my belief is unfounded. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid that all of you have miscontrued the value of the "Clement Finch - Western Journal of Medicine“ reference. He did not make up that name. He was honouring Marie by adopting the name of her book. From the moment she first heard the words “Hemochromatosis” and began to understand that her adored husband’s many years of suffering and remarkable skin pigmentation (which she describes as a “tan that did not fade”) were the result of “too much iron”, she could only refer to the disease she regarded as their enemy, as “the bronze killer”. It is thus not surprising that twenty-year-old letterheads of the Canadian Hemochromatosis Society bear the slogan: “Fight the bronze killer!”—which did not sit well with one of the physicians whom she had recruited as an ally.

“Too melodramatic," was the pronouncement of the doctor. When he stated categorically that he could not work with her unless she did so, rather than lose the indispensable co-operation of someone she so greatly respected, she removed all mention of the bronze killer from the society’s literature—but not from her heart or her mind

In 1982 she was interviewed by a reporter from the Vancouver Sun. “With some bitterness—and still mistakenly adhering to the belief that Hemochromatosis was purely the technical name for ‘bronze diabetes’ and nothing else”—she relates, “I had taken to referring to it (Hemochromatosis) as ‘the bronze killer’. I had already decided that, if I ever finished the book I had started, this would be the title. The term so intrigued the Sun reporter that his story carried the heading: ‘Victoria Couple Fight Bronze Killer’. Whether this suggested a bizarre crime of some sort, I don’t know, but it certainly caught the attention of readers…Be that as it may, it got me an interview on the CBC radio program, ‘As It Happens’ which can be heard internationally*…and the rest is history.”

24.207.95.209 (talk) 06:03, 30 May 2010 (UTC) I omitted to log in before posting the previous edit for which I apologize. Perhaps remarks made by Doctor H.W. Hitzeroth, Director- General of Genetic Services in Pretoria, stating that the information had been referred to him for “specific” attention will further confirm acceptance of The Bronze Killer. He was, he wrote,“highly impressed” with the evidence Marie had collected and summarized regarding the importance of hemochromatosis. At the other end of the world, (Delta, British Columbia) my own physician does not only keep a copy for his newly-diagnose patients to read, he has given a a copy to the lab to which he send them for tests. The list goes on and on. Imperani (talk) 06:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC) — Imperani (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

I don't believe anyone who has been involved with the discussion of this article doubts the fact that hemochromatosis is a serious illness, or that Ms. Warder is responsible for the term "bronze killer". I just don't think there are any references other than certain personal anecdotes to support the fact that "the book is used by physicians around the world". WikiDan61

^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC) Regarding the above, I am determined to find more references for you. There are some on Youtube, but that would be too laborious for you to go through. Meanwhile I have been able to research and find a reference to allay doubts on two other counts.[reply]

1) Judy Lloyd and the Fickburg news. Found, in the obituary for Marie's father, that Harold LLoyd - the husband of Judy - was the owner of the Ficksburg News, that she often contributed, and read the story about Marie in the "Journalist," a newsletter sent regularly to journalists.

The families were close friends. (Their son, Mike, became Marie's brother-inlaw and, in years to come, would conduct the funeral of Tom Warder.) He had also been a journalist. He had, in fact, been the editor of one of the most respected ‘dailies’ in South Africa, but his life changed after some dreadful years in a prisoner-of-war in Poland, where he had also, perforce, had to act as a lay chaplain to his fellow prisoners, and he came home with the firm conviction that he could not do that for the rest of his life. In time he became Marie's brother-in-law, and a great influence on her .

The family had virtually known Marie since "before she was born" and, when because of them she made up her mind very early in life that she was also going to write - " books and stories" - but, it was when she was eleven and she and her sister (who was then 21) arrived in Cape Town) where they met up again with Mike (and where it rained more than any place she had ever lived before) that, absorbing all she overheard when Mike and his his colleages talked, that she questioned them, and was surprised to learn that people were actually paid to write for newspapers. That was when she realized that the coveted Wellington Boots might be attainable.

BC BOOKWORLD Another unique happening. The publisher, whom Marie had come to know through circumstances with which I shall not bore you, was so impressed with her determination to make the world aware of Hemochromatosis, that he deviated from his usual practice, and published an advance story about her and early version of The Bronze Killer, in the newspaper which is to be found free of charge in libaries and bookstores, before it came off the press and he has followed her progress ever since. She has not had to "ubmit" stories like the Christopher Robin one, herself. He was so amused and enchanted when he heard the anecdote - during a telphone discussion about something else - that he wrote it, himself. Imperani (talk) 16:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you don't understand what is meant by a reference in Wikipedia. An anecdote is not a reference - in fact, it just makes things worse, because then the anecdote itself needs to be supported with a reference. Perhaps it will help you to read Wikipedia:Citing sources. —Paul A (talk) 16:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The talk page is for talking. The article is not for talking.

Somehow the images I uploaded to the Marie Warder article may have merged with Venturian's story about Tom Warder, because they were in Commons. Murella (talk) 00:26, 31 May 2010 (UTC) Murella (talk) 00:42, 31 May 2010 (UTC) Changed spelling of van Zijl because when written cursively if becomes van Zyl and if there are not two dots on the "y". It appears as as van Zyl in records I have found, related to her days with the Amalgamated Press.[reply]

Murella (talk) 00:42, 31 May 2010 (UTC) I received a "Commons" list of messages when I first logged in, concerning images in the Commons, Thw Bronze Killer bookcover and Tom Warder.jpg, and I succeeded in responding to the former, but I am unable to return to the list in order to confirm use of the second.[reply]

Murella (talk) 06:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Canada Volunteer Medal of Honour

There are several references in the article relating to Warder's receipt of "The Canada Volunteer Medal of Honour". No citation is given for this award, and no searches I have performed can find any evidence of the existence of such an award. Perhaps the name is incorrect? If no valid citation can be found, this fact may have to be removed from the article. (And before the inevitable question is asked: no, the picture of her with the medal is not sufficient verification. The picture is not sufficiently detailed to provide evidence as to what the medal is for.) WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I happened to glance at this and I'm sure I provided the citation. I'll look again. Unfortunately, even if I get the document scanned for you, there is no way I could send that, unless I provide it as an image. Murella (talk) 19:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It would be a good start to know what organization gave this medal. Perhaps their website has a list of past honorees? WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:39, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was given to her by the Government of Canada,for making Canada and the rest of the world aware of Hemochromatosis and the prevalence of the crippling and potentially fatal genetic disorder. 24.207.29.22 (talk) 00:09, 23 December 2013 (UTC) 24.207.29.22 (talk) 00:09, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that update, but we still need a reliable source to say so. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:38, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On inline citations and clarifications

I added the template {{clarify}} after the Delta Optimist inline citation that follows this text:

A devout Christian, she was familiar for many years as a lay chaplain at the Delta Hospital in Ladner,British Columbia.

The Delta optimist inline citation (also termed "reference") looks like this:

Westell, Jan (2003). "Author steps back in time to South Africa". Delta Optimist. Today, Marie Warder lives in Tsawwassen, British Columbia, where for more than seven years she was well-known as a chaplain at the Delta Hospital

Now, I did try to verify this by looking through maybe 8 issues of that newspaper, but I gave up as without a more precise date it is quite tedious. Therefore I added the {{clarify}} template hoping that someone could supply a date.

The archives are online at http://archive.delta-optimist.com/issues03/011203/news.html, but the html is broken such that one needs to repair it locally (I used the Opera browser) before it is searchable. This is another reason why a precise date would help.

The {{clarify}} template does not mean an editor is likely to remove the text: it is merely a request for more details to help verification. It does not mean the claim about being a lay chaplain will be removed, because print-only sources are also acceptable.

-84user (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When described by the well-known South African lexicographer, Dr. H Terblanche, as the most perfectly bi-lingual person in the country,he was referring to English and Afrikaans; but from early childhood --due to her attachment to her Basutho nanny -- Marie Warder also spoke fluent Sesutho.(Sotho) Later, because she envied her sister who was able to converse with their father in Latin, she mastered it well enough to teach it. 24.207.29.22 (talk) 23:57, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 24.207.29.22 (talk) 00:01, 23 December 2013 (UTC) ````[reply]

And...? Interesting factoid, but not really relevant to the article and, again, unsourced. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:39, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

/* Biography */ Inserted info to connect with http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/27_Squadron_SAAF

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/27_Squadron_SAAF is mentioned in 3 different places, but not connected, even with the paragraph in the article about Marie Warder. It seems to be suggested that the article about 27 Squadron does not exist.

24.207.29.22 (talk) 05:42, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

IT CERTAINLY DID!!!

Re: Segment about Frederick Abinger (Tom) Warder A recent addition addition to Wikipedia has been the article about 27 Squadron SAAF, and it should be noted that Frederick Abinger (Tom)Warder was at the age of 19, a member of that squadron in North Africa, Malta and Oran. After his return from the war, he became a gyroscopic expert, inventing--among other things-- the gyroscope brake which saved a great deal of of flying time on long trips, when planes had to be re-filled.

154.20.20.171 (talk) 20:08, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Marie Warder, and should stick to verifiable facts about her life. There has already been a community consensus that Tom Warder is not sufficiently notable for his own article. Attempts to expand this article to contain unsourced statements that aggrandize his life and accomplishments should be avoided. As it stands, there is no verification that Tom Warder served with the 27th SAAF or that his post-war achievements were anything noteworthy, nor is there any point to such a claim, because, again, this article is not about Tom. Tom is mentioned here solely because it was his diagnosis with hemochromatosis (and subsquently, their daughter's diagnosis) that spurred Marie's activism. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:44, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Marie Warder. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:18, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]