Talk:Marie Adélaïde of Savoy

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 6, 2019.

not: Princess of Savoy

She was not princess of Savoy: her father was still Duke of Savoy by the time of her marriage. He became King of Savoy later! Thus, she was not princess by birth. --85.226.47.10 (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are not necessarily correct. If a dukedom is sovereign, then its ruling family is considered to be royal, and its members are either princes or princesses by birth. Only if a dukedom is not sovereign and is merely a fiefdom of a larger kingdom is the family that bears the title of that dukedom considered non-royal and merely noble. Since Savoy was a sovereign nation at the time of her birth, Marie-Adelaide was indeed born a princess without her father being a king.BoBo (talk) 23:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In a social sense, she was a princess, yes, but did she have the title Princess formally? Look at this example: [[1]]. She was also a princess in reality but not on paper. And I am sure they are many other examples. --85.226.47.10 (talk) 16:08, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may be confusing style and rank. Royal Highness is a style independent of the rank of Prince. It is possible for the daughter of a sovereign duke to be born a princess without being a Royal Highness. BoBo (talk) 20:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, let me put it this way: if she was "Her Royal Higness the Duchess of Savoy", then she was not "Her Royal Higness the Princess of Savoy". She may be called "Her Royal Highness", but still not have the title "Princess". Are there any documents which refers to her as princess of Savoy?--85.226.47.10 (talk) 11:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And, as I said, Duchess Maria Josepha of Saxony is very similar. --85.226.47.10 (talk) 11:09, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What I don't think you understand is that members of sovereign houses in Europe can and do bear the rank of prince or princess despite the fact that the head of the family may only be an elector, grand duke or duke. A perfect example is the House of Grimaldi in Monaco. Daughters of the Prince of Monaco, who is not a king or a Royal Highness, but is a sovereign prince and a Serene Highness, are born with the rank of princess. The same goes for Marie-Adelaide. She was born a princess, NOT a duchess, because that is how daughters of the House of Savoy were titled at the time. BoBo (talk) 15:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I do understand the matter. This is not a general discussion about the matter. I just wonder: do you have any proof? Is there anything to verify this? That is a proper request. --85.226.47.10 (talk) 20:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think you do. After doing some research of my own, I discovered that the Dauphine Marie-Josèphe of France was considered a princess before her marriage to Louis XV's son. That eliminates your first piece of evidence. See her talk page for my reasoning. Also, here is a quote from biographer Lucy Norton, who also did a full English translation of the letters of the duc de Saint-Simon, from her book on Marie-Adélaïde, which was published in 1978, First Lady of Versailles:

Marie Adélaïde, the little Princess of Savoy, who was sent to France at the tender age of eleven to marry Louis XIV's grandson, and became the mother of Louis XV, provides a notable exception to this crew of arrogant princesses.

Yes, but that is a private letter, not a formal document. A private person can have any wiev he wants, just like you and me; after all, she was a princess in a social sense, even if she had the formal title duchess, which makes people both then and now to see her as a princess. It must be a formal document. Anywhay: for me, the discussion isn't really important enough to continue it this many days, but if someone can verify that she was a princess of Savoy someday, then that would be good for wikipedia.--85.226.47.10 (talk) 13:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and of course: as goes for Marie-Josephe, I hardly regard my example of her to be seen as hard evidence (? its funny that you take this so seriously!), just as an example. And if it is not correct, I am not embarrassed by it, but only glad I could correct the title on that article from duchess to princess, if it really is the correct one. (Isn't it amusing, how serious people can be and how easily people can get agitated on discussions on wikpedia? You sounded as if this were a fight on life and death...) This is about this article. If the question is solwed for that article, then I hope it will someday be solved for this as well (and of course, with other documents than private letters)! Good luck to you!--85.226.47.10 (talk) 13:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

She was Princess of Savoy as daughter of an independent ruler the duke of Savoy. You should read the article Prince in Wikipedia and you will find your answer. She was not Princess by birth but her "title" was more a generic custom coming from the Holy Roman Empire.90.9.158.249 (talk) 12:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On her birthday

I had a doubt about the election Marie-Adelaide's Christian name. The name Adelaide had been before in the Savoyard noble House, but I'm asking myself if she was named after Saint Adelaide of Italy, whose Feast Day was on December 16. Marie Adelaide was born on December 6, 1685, but on what calendar (Gregorian or Julian?). Curiously on the Gregorian Calendar, December 16 1685 falls in the same day as December 6, 1685 on the Julian Calendar. So my doubt is, was Marie Adelaide born on the Gregorian Calendar on December 16 or December 6... It seems quite odd to be a coincidence, considering that the House of Savoy was Catholic and Saint Adelaide an important royal saint.

Measles

Under the section "Dauphine of France", it says, "fever which escalated in measles." This should be rewritten. As is, it suggests that she had a fever which resulted in measles. I thought measles was a disease that involved fever. It should probably be rewritten as "fever which turned out to be measles" or, perhaps more precisely, "measles which resulted in a fever which escalated."--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 12:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]