Talk:Margie Hines

Possible date of death - reliable source?

I've requested the Reliable Sources Noticeboard to weigh in on whether Behind the Voice Actors is a reliable source or not. My inquiry is here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I think i can exsplain that one. In early 2011 there was this rumor going around on a remember website which stated that she had died in 2011, which is untrue becuse nothing is known about her personal life and her death, due to the fact that when she divorced Jack Mercer she just dissapeared, the only things i know about her is that she worked on a radio show as a gossip and performed live in some shows in the 40's. Behind the Voice Actors most likley came across that rumor. If your intrested here's where the information actually came from: http://www.polarblairsden.com/remembers11.html Bayoneta (talk) 01:14, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Per the discussion above, and the likeliness that this rumour stemmed from this memorial page dated February 2011 for a "Margaret Hines" (which is without a doubt a different person), I'm going to remove this unreliable date of death if there are no objections? --Jkaharper (talk) 05:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I've no objections. It's quite probable that she has died, but we need a RS. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:48, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Possible date of birth?

This blog article : I'm Winfield the Sailor Man (1 June 2013, Tralfaz) includes a possible image of their marriage application[1], giving her age at the time as 24, his 26. I'm not quit sure what to do this. {{Birth based on age as of date}} gives "1914 or 1915 (age 109–110)", different than the usually assigned year of 1909.--Auric talk 02:27, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, since the blog is not a reliable source per WP:SPS, I don't think we can accept the scanned marriage application as an RS either - although it can be used as a lead in perhaps tracking down her date of birth from some official source (and maybe her date of death as well- it would be nice to not have that controversy hanging around causing problems). BMK (talk) 02:37, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

She was born in 1917 and died in 1998 in Brooklyn New York. [2] (1917-1998) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.71.53 (talk) 13:31, 23 September 2015‎ (UTC)

If that can be sourced directly from Social Security records, rather than from this UK website, it would be usable. BMK (talk) 19:36, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, let me revise that. A quick search shows multiple "Margie Hines" in the database, some with middle initials. How do we know which one is the right one? Further, we don't even know if "Margie" is her birth name, or the name she was listed under with Social Security, it's just as likely to have been "Margaret", and there are 215 "Margaret Hines" listed. Unless we have more information to determine which of these people is the right person, the person who died in Brooklyn and was issued a SS card in Texas is simply one of the possibilities. BMK (talk) 19:43, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Birth and death

On her IMDb page, it says she was born in 1909 and died on February 4, 2011. --110.144.52.52 (talk) 10:24, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Please see WP:RS/IMDB. MarnetteD|Talk 17:52, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

For information - the source for her death that has been discussed at the Ref Desk is here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:04, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Am I right in assuming that this site is also unreliable? - user-generated, I assume, but with identical death details. How about this one? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:15, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

This strikes me as the most reliable source so far - giving the year 2011 but no date. I've edited the article accordingly. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:26, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Concerned that users are not doing any real research here based on her birth details (which we have matched with records) and instead are just trying to find a source that matches this 2011 death source which was widely believed to be non-reliable and a possible hoax at the time. There is nobody under the names of Margaret/Margie L./Louise Hines/Mercer etc. in the SSDI or Ancestry listed as having died on or around that date in 2011. I call complete BS on the 2011 date and I think we should be looking at the idea of researching this properly through records, rather than just searching for another site that has copied the 2011 date without verifying it, which is obviously the case with these webpages. --Jkaharper (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

It is most certainly not up to us to do "real research" in the way you suggest. We don't go on the basis of primary sources when we have secondary sources that appear to be as reliable as any other books on the subject may be. We cannot cherry-pick sources we "believe", and ignore those that we, in our personal opinions as editors, might consider "BS". It's not up to us to decide. I have seen no good reason for disputing the 2011 year that is in the source I quoted. Do you have any irrefutable evidence to support your allegation that the book's author has simply copied information from a poor source? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:10, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

IMO Jkaharper is right. Still, the source you used can be considered reliable by Wiki standards, so it can not be removed. What a paradox. Lies that become truth. --Folengo (talk) 20:05, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Totally agree. Amateur author has inserted the fictitious year of death by doing a basic online search and we're considering it to be a reliable source. Sad that other editors can't see fact from fiction. Nobody knows what happened to this woman. Initial blog source in 2011 was most likely a hoax. We shouldn't be adding a death date or year until something concrete comes along from somebody who has successfully researched. --Jkaharper (talk) 23:35, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

But it is not up to us as editors to decide that an "amateur author has inserted the fictitious year of death by doing a basic online search". It may be true, but - as has been said already - it is pure original research for editors to make that assumption. We can't pick and choose what material in sources deemed to be reliable we personally consider to be accurate. Raise this question at WP:RS/N if you are still unhappy. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:38, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I still think the only way this is gonna be settled is for someone to go to a public records office and inquire about records of her but that depends on whether editors live close to where she was born or her last place of residence which could have been Albany. --ThatBaileyLad (talk) 17:40, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

How would that not be inadmissible original research? Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:36, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

2011 death - certain hoax

Got to the bottom of this Ray Pointer e-book source by contacting the author himself. By his own admission, he copied the 2011 death date directly from her Wikipedia page. Please find correspondence below:

"Dear Mr. Pointer,

I am writing to you with a query regarding Margie Hines, the actress and original voice of Betty Boop, who is mentioned in your Max Fleischer book.

My query concerns her death. For years I have been a senior editor on Wikipedia and I have spent a lot of that time researching Hollywood stars of the silent and Golden eras. Many of these people simply fall off the radar completely and die in obscurity. Hines is no exception and it seems nothing is known of her life following the divorce from her husband.

This is why it was surprising when a memorial page appeared online several years ago saying that she had passed away in Albany, NY in 2011. At the time of this there was a malicious individual(s) who was posted fake obituaries of “forgotten” stars in various places online. Some examples are Loni Nest, Don Marion Davis and Pola Illery, all of which have now been resolved and their true fates unearthed. The tribute page in question for Hines has now been removed, yet IMDb and a couple of other sites still use this death date. IMDb has never, in my experience, been reliable.

I am therefore curious to know where you took 2011 as a death year from? Seeing it in your book has made me wonder if it was in fact when she passed. I would love to finally solve this mystery. If you could pass on anymore information or research it would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards, James"

"Dear James,

The life of Margie Hines was in fact quite difficult to trace after Jack Mercer divorced her some time in 1944 over infidelity. At least other sources seemed to lead to Margie continuing to live until 2011, the same year that Mae Questel passed away. She was a year younger than Mae, so this would seem credible. I was unable to find an obituary or Death Record, but did reason that the Wikipedia entry seemed credible. What is interesting is that she stated her age as 24 when she married Jack Mercer in 1939. That would have made her 15 when she first recorded the covers as a Helen Kane impersonator in 1930, which seems suspicious. Other sources, including Wikipedia show her year of birth as 1909. If that should be true, she would have live to the age of 102. As incredible as it may seem, it isn't impossible since Essie Fleischer lived that long as well.

Margie Hines is indeed an obscure person, and researching her is very difficult. We try the best we can with what information that has been available to date. However, in this age of increased availability to information on the Internet, I am still open to further proof. But to date, this is the best I have been able to provide. Incidentally, I was asked to re-write the Max Fleischer entry on Wikepedia as well as its associated links. After a year it was invaded by a Bot focused on Krakow that altered my text making the false claim that Max was a "Polish-American" and was born in Poland. The text has a footnote reference to Page 7 of my book, which contradicts this claim, as clearly explained. Max was born in Krakow at the time it was under the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Krakow was not absorbed into the state of Poland until after 1919, which is when Max was already actively producing the OUT OF THE INKWELL series at The Bray Studios. The family always said they came from Austria, spoke German originally, and were also registered as country of origin as Austria in their Immigration and Census Records. So I share in your frustrations over the issues concerning Wikipedia entries and the efforts to provide accurate information.

Thank you for contacting me.

Sincerely,

Ray Pointer inkwellrp@aol.com"

This is very much like the Don Marion Davis case then. I am going to remove the 2011 date once again. There is absolutely nothing that supports this. As I have mentioned before, this originated on an online memorial that was subsequently identified as a hoax but by that point it had spread everywhere and now it seems to be finding its way on to Google books(!). Having false information on Wikipedia is very damaging to historical records and fact finding as the above communication shows. Might not be a bad idea to lock this page in the meantime to stop the 2011 death date being repeatedly re-added. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 09:40, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

That's very interesting and informative, but it doesn't change the position that your edit is the result of original research, and that at least one reliable source (as well as unreliable ones) give her death date as 2011. Moving forward, if we have a date when it is certainly known that she was alive, and if we are now certain that she has died, we should insert in the opening sentence something like "date of death unknown, after 19xx", with some explanation of the uncertainty in the text. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:02, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

With all due respect Ghmyrtle, you repeatedly cite original research as your opposition to letting this go, despite the fact that I am the only one who is actively trying to get to the bottom of this and coming up with anything concrete. I will refer you here: Wikipedia:Common sense, "Wikipedia has many policies or what many consider "rules". Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule." In October she will pass a point where she would be amongst the world's oldest people at supercentenarian status. As per common practice on Wiki, we should add ", date of death unknown" to the first line and add Category:Year of death missing, when that time comes. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 12:14, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

With all due respect, "I am the only one who is actively trying to get to the bottom of this" is almost the definition of original research! As a "senior editor" (your term), I'm sure you know that verifiability trumps accuracy. But I've no objection to you adding the words you suggest and, given the comments you added earlier, I'd have thought you would be pleased that I haven't reverted your last edit. Let that be an end to it. Really, no-one but you really cares that much. Regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:40, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

As someone said before chance's are she remarried and took that surname which is probably one of the reason's why we cannot seem to trace her at all. I believe trying to check a record's office for her would be beneficial and see if she's there, but it mean's a Wikipedia user would maybe have to travel to where she was born or where she is rumored to have died to maybe find out. --ThatBaileyLad (talk) 23:50, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

A Breakthrough.

Okay, so I think I may have made a breakthrough on figuring out what happened to this person. The 1909 birthday is completely wrong actually.

Check it, so the year of birth according to this WP:RS is 1914 or 1915 (age 109–110). How can we be so certain? BAM. Primary source.

Resources

All possible name variants

Margie Hines Margie L. Hines Margie Louise Hines Margie Mercer Margie L. Mercer Margie Louise Mercer Marjorie Hines Marjorie L. Hines Marjorie Louise Hines Marjorie Mercer Marjorie L. Mercer Marjorie Louise Mercer Margaret Hines Margaret L. Hines Margaret Louise Hines Margaret Mercer Margaret L. Mercer Margaret Louise Mercer Margret Hines Margret L. Hines Margret Louise Hines Margret Mercer Margret L. Mercer Margret Louise Mercer Margy Hines Margy L. Hines Margy Louise Hines Margy Mercer Margy L. Mercer Margy Louise Mercer

• Margie Hines on Betty Boop Wiki

References

News Clippings:
[3]unverified [4] [5] [6]
Each give just a bit more information on the subject.

Discussion

Thoughts? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 22:46, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Most importantly, the article I first linked above says that Hines' mom lived on Long Island. It's a crack in the case!! –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 23:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

If she's the same person in the photo in this clipping, [7], there's a home address for her too from 1928, which may help find relatives' names. Connormah (talk) 06:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

@Connormah: Woah!! That is an amazingingly good find!!! –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 15:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure if these sources have been raised before.... but there is a New York Birth Record for Margaret L Hines, born in Queens, New York on 15 October 1909. The 1910 US Federal Census has Margaret L Hines aged 6 months, living with parents Andrew T and Cecilia M Hines at 7 Van Horn St, Queens. The 1915 New York Census has her, aged 5, with the same parents at 7 Delta Place, Queens. The 1920 Federal Census has Margaret Hines, aged 10, living with Cecile Hines ( [sic]), still at 7 Delta Place. The 1930 Federal Census has Margaret L. Hines aged 20, "singer", living with Cecilia M Hines at 6164 Ralph Ave., Queens. The 1940 Federal Census has Marjorie R (?) Mercer aged 30, "artist", born in Queens, living with Winfield B Mercer, at 3130 Gifford Lane, Miami, Florida. All these records are public records which I've accessed via Ancestry.com. They certainly indicate a birth date of 1909, and not 1915 or 1917/18. Of course, it was commonplace - especially for females, and especially in the entertainment industry - to knock a few years off their age, and that clearly must have happened in her case. She was not 24 when she married in 1939 - she was 29. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:29, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

@MJL:, @MarnetteD:, @Jkaharper: - any thoughts on this? There's surely no good reason to keep the 1917/18 birth date? Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:18, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work on this Ghmyrtle. I agree with your assessment. I think it would be a good idea to add some or all of your info in a footnote so readers can understand why there is a variance in the dates. MarnetteD|Talk 18:54, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

I also agree with the above. It's nice having someone finally do the hard work of figuring out what happened from beginning to end. Also, a footnote would be extremely helpful in this case per MarnetteD. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 03:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I've now gone ahead and made those changes. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:47, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Agree with this decision. Likely that Hines and her husband may have reduced their ages publicly as was commonplace with many in the industry at the time. 1909 would make more sense. --Jkaharper (talk) 17:52, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Have been looking into this further, and it appears that her mother later re-married, and she had stepsister, who might still be living. I would imagine that would be the key as to finding out her eventual fate. The last mention of her is in her father's obituary, 1948, where she is stated to live on Long Island, using the Mercer name still. There was a Margaret Mercer who died on July 4, 1959 in New York City at the age of 50 (could not find any other details), but the age would not match up with an October 1909 birth date. Connormah (talk) 19:30, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Solved

A very helpful librarian associated with the Margaret Herrick Library was able to resolve this one - here are the links (as copied from @Jkaharper:'s talk page. Also pinging MJL and Ghmyrtle. The librarian was able to discover that she married Raymond Brenneis in 1951 [8]; divorced him in 1954 [9]; married Jesse W Heidtmann in 1956 [10]; and died under the Heidtmann name in December 1985, last living in Seaford, NY [11]. This additional public records listing for Marjorie L Heidtmann [12] also gives an alternate name of Marjorie L Hines, so in addition to the matching DOB, it is undoubtedly the correct person. Connormah (talk) 01:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

How very interesting. In many of these mystery cases it often transpires that multiple marriages or frequently moving states/countries are a big part of the reason why some actors just fall off the radar in their own lifetimes. Bravo for your commitment to this case Connormah. Having this tied up at last is quite satisfying. Hopefully the info can be changed on IMDb in time, which will stop newbie users or guests copy and pasting the 2011 hoax date back on here! Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 01:29, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Nice work Connormah and many many thanks to your librarian - can we send them some Wikipedia t-shirts :-) As to how to note this in the article I always lean toward footnotes but am okay with what other editors decide. It is worth mentioning that IMDb was way off which is a good example of why they are not a WP:RS. Thanks again. MarnetteD|Talk 01:32, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Very good. Is there any chance of finding a friendly journalist somewhere who can write this up, with the accurate dates, that we can then use as a reference? I would lean towards including the correct dates anyway, with a footnote explaining the sources. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:17, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

My hope is that the correct information starts to gradually replace the 2011 hoax date wherever it has appeared. As mentioned on Jkaharper's talk page, it seems that this will be also included at in the library's Core Collection Files finding aid once they are able to create a file for her. But I would lean towards including the correct info here as well. Connormah (talk) 08:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Jkaharper, did you want to go ahead and add everything from the records above? I would do it myself but seeing as you're more experienced in previous cases, perhaps you'd like to. Connormah (talk) 17:19, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

I'll have a crack at it in the next few days (at the latest Tuesday) when I get some time. Building up Ancestry and Newspapers.com sources takes some time and I'll need to ensure everything ties up neatly. As per the conversation above, I'm not against footnotes. They're used quite nicely on plenty of articles on Wiki, but I'll leave it up to other editors to decide if they wish to add some after. They can definitely become more of a lengthy mess than a helpful aide to readers, as the Joan Barry (American actress) page demonstrates. However, I'll definitely use one to clarify / refute the 2011 date. This should stop other users readding it. Sadly, until the likes of IMDb etc. remove the hoax information, it's likely the 2011 date will be readded by guest editors in the future so the page will still have to be monitored closely. If there are no clear objections from any other editors, I'll try and piece this together best I can. Hopefully it will look relatively tidy, and ofc I welcome any feedback/criticism! Thanks again --Jkaharper (talk) 20:10, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Added marriages, divorces, death month, year and place, alongside all supporting records. I've also updated and tidied the infobox, and expanded the bleak looking Filmography section to include every credit in an animation short which has its own Wikipedia page (or section redirect). I also had a look on Newspapers.com. Disappointed to say there really is nothing more on there that would help beef the article up a bit more – just a few old newspaper clippings which mention Hines voicing Betty Boop and Olive Oyl and her marriage and then divorce to fellow voice actor Jack Mercer, which we already have sufficient sources for. I think the Filmography section would look tidier if the table could be split into two columns. I'm only aware of how to do this on a section without a table. Can somebody else help with this please? Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 15:54, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Should also note, as Connormah pointed out to me yesterday, Hines' IMDb page has now been updated with the correct death details. Hopefully this is an end to weekly non-constructive edits. --Jkaharper (talk) 16:00, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Looks great to me, thanks for your work. Connormah (talk) 23:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Well done J. Thanks to you and to everyone who has worked on this!! MarnetteD|Talk 23:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Excellent. I've added the Heidtmann name to the sentence about her death, to make it absolutely clear that was her name at the time. Should it be added to the infobox as well, as an "other name"? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:13, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

I lean towards using that field for names that are completely different but the documentation for the field does state "This can include stage names, maiden/married names, nicknames, criminal aliases, etc. " so you could include it is you wish :-) MarnetteD|Talk 17:41, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Find a Grave Record

Even though several Census records give her parents as Andrew and Cecilia Hines, the Find a Grave record indicates that she was born Heidtmann rather than Hines based on her parents. Are we sure this is the same person? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:66M4-DBF6 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/233624579/marjorie-hines 2600:100C:A213:A7A6:B09D:E329:AC10:88DA (talk) 12:40, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

The FindaGrave record (which is user-generated) is in error in implying that Heidtmann was her birth name. That's a misinterpretation of the photo, by whoever made the entry. The photo clearly shows the headstone for the Heidtmann family, and includes Marjorie Hines as Jesse Heidtmann's wife. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:47, 1 September 2022 (UTC) PS: The FindaGrave entry is closed from editing, so it may be that the error has already been discovered and we are waiting for it to be changed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:50, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

That could be possible here. Either that or she is buried with her in-laws. 2600:100C:A213:A7A6:B09D:E329:AC10:88DA (talk) 12:53, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be correct. She was married to Jesse William Heidtmann (1918-1997), who was the son of Jesse Harold Heidtmann (1887-1970) and his wife Nellie Beatrice (née Leach, also 1887-1970). Marjorie pre-deceased her husband, and he must have been buried (or cremated) elsewhere. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:04, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Though FindaGrave is user-generated, the headstone in the photo does give a precise date of death for Margie Hines - December 23, 1985. Should this now be included in the article? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:04, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Well generally, Find A Grave is not considered a reliable source as it is user generated. Not sure if this is an exception though. 2600:100C:A213:A7A6:B09D:E329:AC10:88DA (talk) 18:43, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

And, indeed, gravestones are not usually considered reliable sources for dates. However, this may be an exception. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:56, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I suggest pinging other users for a consensus. 2600:100C:A213:A7A6:B09D:E329:AC10:88DA (talk) 19:01, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I expect they'll pick up on this discussion anyway, but... Jkaharper, MarnetteD, Connormah - should the death date shown on the headstone here be used in the article? Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:26, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. Due to WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL I am always leery of using FaG. It is one of those sites like IMDB. While most of the info at either site is accurate and added in good faith there is little fact checking. In the case of IMDb they have been used to create some rather amazing hoaxes - User:Rhododendrites/Chaney is a prime example. While I have not read of anything like that being done at FaG in this age where photos are so easily manipulated hoaxing is always a possibility. I would be happier if you could find something to confirm or refute the FaG pic. If others agree with you Ghmyrtle that an exception can be made in this case then I wont object. Regards to all. MarnetteD|Talk 22:06, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I personally think it's probably fine, as I don't see any reason why someone would go through the trouble to manipulate a photo of the actual stone to be incorrect. It is in line with the December month of death and 1985 year of death. I don't see that the user generated criticism applies here either, as it's an actual photo of the stone. Connormah (talk) 23:37, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

All fine by me. I've uploaded the gravestone image separately from FindAGrave and attached it beside her death record to source the precise date. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 17:03, 2 September 2022 (UTC)