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"MARCUS LAMB

In 1997, Marcus began the Daystar Television Network, which owns and operates TV stations across the nation. Daystar is now the secondlargest Christian Television Network in the world. Marcus and his wife, Joni, host a daily TV program called “Celebration” that is broadcast live via satellite across the nation and around the world. They minister at various churches around the nation. http://www.thechurchreport.com/content/view/823/32/"

Although this looks like a cut and paste job, I'm going to keep it because Marcus Lamb is indeed notable, and I will try to clean it up and conform to standards. I'm also going to stubby it because I don't know enough nor do I care enough about the subject to expand it. Colby 01:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Entry needs serious Wikification

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The entire entry (except for the "Extramarital Affair" section) reads like it was copied and pasted from Lamb's CV. I'm going to prune out some unsourced and/or non-notable stuff and hope that others will try to build a better entry. I took out the entire "Daystar Network" section since (1) it had no sources whatsoever, (2) it read like PR copy, (3) the technical details of the network are non-notable, and (4) the network itself is non-notable in Lamb's bio. If someone wants to start a WP entry on Daystar Network, they're welcome to do so. I also added "no source" in places where sources are required but lacking. Finally, I think that we should get rid of the "became a born-again Christian at age 5" claim since I think it's preposterous that a 5 year-old has anything like the mental development required to be "born again". Born again (Christianity) states "being born again is predominantly understood by Protestants, Episcopalians and Lutherans...to be an experience of conversion...rooted in commitment to one's personal faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. A metaphorical rebirth occurs when a person accepts Jesus as the Messiah and receives the Holy Spirit. Within evangelical Protestantism, the term 'born again' has come to be associated with a new concept, an experience of conversion, defined as mental assent to the acceptance of Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour." I find it very hard to believe that a 5 year-old is capable of such an independent process. Discuss. Bricology (talk) 18:27, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bricology, I didn't see your comments here before I did some serious wikification and copyediting. However, please don't add "(no source)" to the text. Use the format outlined in Wikipedia:Verifiability by inserting [citation needed] or [citation needed] by writing {{cn}} or {{fact}}. As for the matter of whether you find it hard to believe that Lamb meets your criteria for being born again at the age of five, this is irrelevant. This issue itself is only marginally relevant, but inasmuch as it is included, it is neither the duty nor the perogative of the editor to pass judgement upon the validity of a particular religious experience or insist that the subject of an article agree with a particular theological view. It's only relevance would be in whether Lamb's claim to this experience, valid or not, is germane to his biography. Finally, whilst I pared down mention of the Daystar Television Network, it has had a Wikipedia entry since 2005. Holford (talk) 01:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Holford, you wrote "As for the matter of...(Lamb) being born again at the age of five, this is irrelevant. This issue itself is only marginally relevant, but inasmuch as it is included, it is neither the duty nor the perogative of the editor to pass judgement upon the validity of a particular religious experience or insist that the subject of an article agree with a particular theological view. It's only relevance would be in whether Lamb's claim to this experience, valid or not, is germane to his biography." Not exactly. The entry reads "At the age of five years old he became a born-again Christian..." That is not a claim that Lamb is making about his subjective experience, that is a functional claim. It doesn't say "At the age of five years old he thinks/felt/believed that he became a born-again Christian." Imagine the entry about Sathya Sai Baba stating "At the age of five years old he became an ascended master", or the entry on L. Ron Hubbard claiming "At the age of five years old he shed all of his body thetans." These are functional claims, not just experiential ones. According to mainstream Christianity and the beliefs of the vast majority of its adherents, being "born again" is a process undergone by a person when they are old enough to make a serious, mature decision. Given the rest of the entry's focus upon Lamb accomplishing impressive feats at an early age, this particular claim seems to smack of more of the same. What if the entry claimed that he had become a "born again" Christian at say, age 4? --or 3? --or 2? Should we likewise be expected to just say "well, we can't pass judgment on whether or not a toddler can be 'born again'/an 'ascended master'/free from 'body thetans'? And how do you suppose say, Encyclopedia Britanica would treat such claims? The fact is that it's all too easy to let nonsense claims work their way into WP entries, and only by jealously guarding against them can we preserve WP's objectivity, reliability and verifiability -- even if those claims may seem to you to be innocuous. To others, they're quite serious and substantive.

As for the "citation needed" tags: I normally use those when we're dealing with edits that seem to have been made in good faith. But there are two factors that bear on this. First, the "printed page" carries weight, and a "citation needed" tag suggests that such citations even exist. What if the entry claimed that Lamb had been "the smartest boy in the world"? Would you suggest using [citation needed]? Or would you (correctly) say that such claims must be accompanied by objective external sources, as WP requires? And secondly, entries are to be written with the sources already in hand, not just thrown up (2 years ago!) and left for others to try to source remedially. If the source ain't there, it should never have been put in the entry in the first place.Bricology (talk) 08:20, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Holford, I concur that Lamb's personal expression of his faith, at whatever age, should be left as is. I do feel however, that the deletion of the information about Daystar Networks (founded and managed by Lamb), was a very broad deletion. Although I agree that sources are required, sources can be added. To delete an entire section that is very relevant to the work Lamb has been involved in much of his life, seems extreme? Perhaps this section needs to be rewritten in a format approved by Wikipedia? I will work on that. I do agree with the deletions of content surrounding unsourced, personal opinion of Lamb's recent announcement of infidelity. The facts of this announcement stand on their own merit. Personal opinion of what other unnamed people 'think' is not relevant, nor encyclopedic. This page will likely become a target for many questionable edits due to recent controversy. It is very important that it retain the factual information only, and not personal bias. Thanks. Grace Sheehy (talk)

Grace, I looked at Bricology's 1 December edits with regard to the Daystar Network, as well as mine, and given that there is a full Wikipedia article it, I think it is better to reference that article than rehash it on the Marcus Lamb page as well. Any of the stuff that was cut from the Marcus Lamb article and that is not in the Daystar article was cut because it was POV and unsubstantiated puff. It may be relevant to have more history of the network in that article, though looking at it, it needs a NPOV cleanup. Holford (talk) 05:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Holford. Neither the Lamb page, nor the article on Daystar Network is well written and needs a complete rewrite in my opinion. I don't suggest the prior content about Daystar be restored to Lamb's article, but rewritten. I do think however, that NPOV information about Daystar is appropriate and relevant to the profile for Lamb. Unlike other secular, global networks that are smaller than Daystar, Christian networks are often started by a single person, and that person continues to oversee that network throughout their lifetime. These networks are not public, nor do they have a corporate infrastructure that you would find with ABC or NBC, whereby management changes and the existence of 'ABC', or other, cannot be attributed to any one individual. The very existence of Daystar is a direct result of Lamb's life work, and therefore, information (NPOV), about that network is a reasonable section to include on his page. This page clearly needs sources. Thanks Grace Sheehy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC).[reply]
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Intro

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Saying that he “died of COVID after being a vaccine skeptic” in the intro is out of balance and should be listed internally within the article. 2603:6010:7809:5C73:F820:1358:7233:F1C7 (talk) 01:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why? He clearly was well known as being a vaccine sceptic, and it’s also a fact that he died from complications of COVID, so what’s wrong with it? How about “He died of embarrassment after becoming critically I’ll with a disease he thought to be fake. Unfortunately a fake death eluded him”? Is that better? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.147.139 (talk) 22:07, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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