Talk:Manitonquat

Before editing this page: Please review DRV

See https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2015_December_29

File:Wikipedia Deletion review Log as of 1 JAN 2016.png

DRV Deletion review log 29 Dec 2015 as of 1 Jan 2016

This entry seems to be cleared for creation / re-creation based on newly-submitted material Horse Dancing (talk) 15:12, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

All prospective editors to this page should familiarize themselves with the citations provided in the above-referenced DRV, documenting Manitonquat's position as tribal elder of the Wampanoag Nation.

He has never lived in Germany. He is not like Grey Owl an impersonator of non-Native American ancestry. Linking his article to Grey Owl, and alleging that he has ever lived "primarily in Germany" would seem to be deliberately inaccurate info.

These edits are alleged to have been inserted with flagrant disregard for accuracy, of a nature to be damaging the integrity of Wikipedia.

Please see previous allegations of vandalism to this page below.

General

This article seems to have been rather vandalized by elements hostile to the subject. Notably by proponents from a website called "newagefraud" (which apparently exists to villify all New Age / alternative philosophy, exponents, etc.) -NAFPS member speaking- No member of NAFPS has written on that page AFIK. NAFPS is a human rights group of Natives and supporters, well respected and including members of tribal gov'ts, many members are AIM or AIM affiliated. Imposters such as Talbot hate us for the same reason the KKK hates the NAACP. Found derogatory sentences violating neutral P.O.V. tone in the opening paragraph, in an incongruous manner. Claims that Manitonquat's Native American ancestry has ever been questioned are unsubstantiated, unsupported except by that website (and possibly some others of a similar colour: basically pursuing a religious crusade against non-Christian outlooks.) -Nonsense. NAFPS members includes Christians and former Newagers. It's well documented that Talbot is non-Native. Only associated with a dubious non recognized group of whites claiming to have ancestry.

Manitonquat has abundant references / testimonials as to the value of his work, its genuine grounding in Native American lore, and its value as a modern development thereof, from recognized authorities on Native American culture, as well as from tribal authorities. Horse Dancing (talk) 16:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Wampanoag tribal representatives praising Manitonquat's work as an authentic representation of the culture are: Dr Helen Attaquin (former curator, Plimoth Plantation Museum, Wampanoag Indian Program, Plymouth, Massaschusetts); gkesedtanamoogk (Wampanoag elder & teacher in Native American Studies program, University of Maine; Chief Windsong Alden Blake, Assonet band, Wampanoag -Assonet are not recognized by actual Wampanoag. Horse Dancing (talk) 19:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Mr Talbot claims his ancestry descends from his paternal grandfather who was also named Francis Story Talbot. The elder Francis Story Talbot's father was George Howard Talbot. George Howard Talbot's biography is written about in depth in History of Bristol County, Massachusetts: With Biographical Sketches of Many of Its Pioneers and Prominent Men, Part 2 written by Duane Hamilton Hurd and published by J. W. Lewis & Company. It is noted on page 635 that the family traces is history back to the early days of settlement and further back into Europe. Not mention of ties to the Wampanoag what so ever. In the biography it shows clearly that the middle name Story comes from the last name of a gentleman George Howard was in a business partnership with, it had nothing to do with ties to indigenous ancestry. The elder Francis Story Talbot nor his father lived or participated in any type of Native American culture.Indigenous girl (talk) 01:07, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Anyone have a highbeam account? Apparently he was "writing and producing plays off-off Broadway for 12 years" before "He changed his name and became medicine man of the Assonet band of the Wampanoags"[1] and acting as well SusunW (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

He was also in the drama club at Cornell and acted there in 1953. [2] [3] SusunW (talk) 19:51, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

-Should there not be mention of the group ZEGG has a long history of sexual abuse? This includes defending pedophilia as natural.

See also

The "see also"s should be revised. Forrest Carter refers to a member of a KKK-Group. The article and the person have no connection to Manitonquat! Other persons are in opinion not adequate too. The only similarity is that they are Native American. --Treveros (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually the similarity is that they are not Native American. - CorbieV^☊☼ 19:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Removed Forrest Carter reference as suggested and added a link to Wikipedia article on Sun Bear, a similar Native American spiritual teacher and author, contemporary and associate of Manitonquat.Horse Dancing (talk) 17:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Let's not have an editing war

This page was re-created in accordance with the DRV (see https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2015_December_29 )

It was re-created along the lines of the Dec 18 edit, which was inclueded in said DRV, with request that any inaccuracies be pointed. There were no objections.

Another editor then made the following changes, which are difficult to understand. If anyone would care to explain how they could represent any improvement on the present expanded edit of today, please do. These edits were undone today: Deleted 1st paragraph references & infobox references to position as keeper of lore of Wampanoag nation. (Despite documentation shown in DRV)

Changed more accurate sentence "he has been known as a co-founder of the Rainbow Gatherings and elder of the Rainbow Family" to inaccurate "is involved with the Rainbow Gatherings and Rainbow Family." (no citation, no Talk p comment)

added false claim that he "lives primarily in Germany" (no citation, no Talk p comment)

changed sentence "...lecturing on the adaptation of Native American philosophy to modern problems of society, community, and relationships." to the more awkward & ungrammatical:

  "...lecturing on the adaptation of the application of Native American philosophy..." 

Retaining the section "The Circle Way" deleted details which are pertinent and informative. Deleted pertinent reference to "The Circle Way" basis in traditional Native American decision-making practices. (no citation, no Talk p comment) Deleted direct connection between The Circle Way and Manitonquat's work with prisoners. (no citation, no Talk p comment) Deleted clarification that The Circle Way is not only the title of a book, but now used to refer to said system of non-adversarial decision-making; and that said system now forms the main focus of Manitonquat's teaching and lecturing. (no citation, no Talk p comment)

More citataions are being added, and are available on the DRV, noted above. Please be sure that your edits are constructive and accurate. Horse Dancing (talk) 16:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Please note the problems with using non-English sources on wikipedia, particularly here, where this individual clearly can snow folks in Europe as a plastic shaman, but has no legitimacy in the USA. Montanabw^(talk) 19:15, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Subject's claims about work in the prisons, and results thereof

With regard to the prison programes. There are only three prisons in New Hampshire. Mr. Talbot is not permitted in the New Hampshire Correctional Fascility for Women, Goffstown. There are three half-way houses that do not have his program so the reality is that the Mettanokit program is used only in the New Hampshire State Prison for Men, Concord and the Northern New Hampshire Correctional Fascility, Berlin. The pamphlet made available by the Bureau of Justice provides information that has been submitted by organizations themselves, they do not choose the organizations to promote. Whomever provides a submission is listed, it's no big deal and does not make the program special. The recidivism rate for the state of New Hampshire has remained at an approximate 43%. The stated 65-85% is a gross exaggeration http://www.nh.gov/nhdoc/divisions/publicinformation/documents/recidivism_study_2014.pdf If BOJ pamphlet allowed such a extremely inaccurate statement I'm not sure that I would trust any of the other information provided regarding the programme. Jeff Lyons, the PIO of the New Hampshire Department of Corrections feels that the 5-10% recidivism rate provided is extremely low and is in the process of looking to provide documentation to attest to a more accurate reflection which he feel is closer to 40%. Unless Mr. Talbot would like to once again be banned from the two facilities he occationally participates in then he may want to rethink the information provided or the individual who submitted it may wish to consider removing it. Ending Violent Crime, the Circle Way and Have You Lost Your Tribe? are all self published booklets that are produced at a copy shop not a publishing house. They are not 'books'. Indigenous girl (talk) 00:31, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Could somebody explain why the discrepancy of Talbot's claims regarding recidivism and number of prisons were removed? It linked directly to NH DOC as a source.Indigenous girl (talk) 00:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I removed it or someone else did, but it was original research based on primary sources. Thparkth (talk) 00:39, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

@Indigenous girl: - I'll look, but if you have a source at hand about the number of prisons and halfway houses in NH, it would be fine to mention the correct number and source it to an official NH website or document. Similarly, if there is quotable content that says all submissions to that document (with the inaccurate figures provided by Talbot) go in unedited, a very short, simple statement to that effect could be quoted and sourced. We can't write our own conclusions, but we can use what the sources themselves say on the topic. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 01:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Sun Bear

I removed the link, as it points to the animal, not the person to whom I believe it's probably intended to point, the late Vincent LaDuke, father of Winona LaDuke, who went by the name "Sun Bear" and founded the "Sun Bear Medicine Society." I'd redirect it, but there's no article on him.

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 17:00, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Citing non-WP:RS and non-WP:V sources.

I deleted sourcing that goes to pages that are not in English, so it is not reasonable to assume en-wiki users can evaluate them. The false claim of Native identity is also in an non-WP:RS source. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:52, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

This is a flawed approach. Reliable sources can be in any language. I invite you to produce a reliable source(s) relating to identity; https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=dxCREXd3YKIC&pg=PA79&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false seems pretty solid. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:56, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

No, it's not. :) As I said elsewhere, Please read the concerns voiced in the AfD. I think it's clear. His genealogy and real history is available online, but most Natives do not have access to academic journals or mainstream coverage, so the criticism has appeared in Native forums and blogs (so is not usable as inline cites). Whereas most mainstream, non-Native writers have just taken Talbot's word for it and not checked. I'm really not sure how else to explain it to you. That writer has no expertise in issues of Native identity. It's a passing quote from Talbot's book, and she simply repeats his bio. If she had checked, it wouldn't be in there. Just google the guy. -

• Thparkth wanted it noted in the AfD that he and I have been reverting each other on the article today. He added three sources that I do not think are particularly useable. One is in Greek. The other is in Italian. En-wiki users shouldn't be assumed to be able to read these languages, or trust a machine translation, so we can't actually evaluate whether they source the content. However, the content they source is just that he told them he's involved in the Rainbow Gathering. A bigger problem with them, that is the main problem with the third source, is that the authors merely copied his official bio where he states he is Wampanoag. The source that is currently being used to falsely state he is a member of the Wampanoag is a passing quote from Talbot's book, and she simply repeats his bio. As the author did not do this basic research into her sources, she has no expertise in issues of Native identity. The source is usable for saying he's been quoted by someone writing about Millenial issues, but not about his history or qualifications thereof. I am going to delete the false claims of Native identity again, and add this to the talk page. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 22:37, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Re-iterating that the sources used for him being "a spiritual elder of the Assonet Band of the Wampanoag" are offline publications the rest of us can't review. Their inclusion as supposedly reliable sources is of course disturbing to those of us who are well aware that his claims are false. What we seem to have are reporters who did not do their due diligence on his claims. People who actually are involved in the language reclamation project have spoken out that Talbot is not part of their group; unfortunately, I don't think it was in a useable source and isn't even online anymore. Hopefully the members of the language project will address this and seek publication in a WP:RS outlet so this can be corrected. I realize that if enough people want these inaccurate sources then the misinformation will stay until more Natives are published. But I am again going on the record that that recently re-added content is incorrect. "Journalists" who just copy people's bios from their press releases when on a P.R. tour are not credible. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 04:05, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

added source

I've added a source https://web.archive.org/web/20110821014957/http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/49/hofford.html which I believe to be a reliable secondary source summarising what Manitonquat lays out in his works. I doubt it is a reliable source for the issue of Manitonquat's ethnicity, as per the discussion above. Stuartyeates (talk) 10:26, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Excellent source. Thanks for explaining about secondary sources. And for being such a good example to us all, your reasonableness and good etiquette. Horse Dancing (talk) 12:19, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

source for 'self published' ?

Is there a reliable source for Story Stone Publishing docs being self published? Stuartyeates (talk) 19:27, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Book list from his site. All titles listed there are on CreateSpace,[4] Xlibris, and AuthorHouse; all are self-publishing services. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:31, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Them currently being available as self-published doesn't preclude them previously being published by a real publisher. The date for Ending Violent Crime, a vision of a society free from violence, Story Stone Publishing (1996) ISBN 9781456584825 precedes the establishment of all of those self-publishing services. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:04, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Before self-publishing houses, there were vanity presses. that appears to be his own imprint. Montanabw^(talk) 04:55, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I'll ask again: Is there a reliable source for Story Stone Publishing docs being self published? WP:OR doesn't let us tag them as self published in the article. If no reliable source is forth coming, I'm removing mentions of self publishing from that article. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I believe the link to the Circleway shows the mailing address to his organization as well as Story Stone Publishing to be one in the same.Indigenous girl (talk) 00:32, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Stuartyeates... is it just me or is this feeling like WP:IDONTHEARYOU? Indigenous girl noted above that these booklets of his were first "published" as zines at the xerox store. The links provided by Montanabw and myself show "Story Stone Publishing" is Francis Story Talbot, aka "Medicine Story"'s own imprint. Please take the time to click on the links, read them, then google some more. I didn't add an inline cite to his self-publishing page because it's a commercial link. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 00:39, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

'Real' authors can sell their own properly published books too, though. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:51, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I think I've found some WP:RSs on this, but don't have time to explore them right now; I'm happy to let it be until I do. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:53, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

@Indigenous girl: posted this and I think most of us missed it: [5] I do think the discrepancy should be included, as it goes to credibility of the statements made by the article subject. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 00:45, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I just checked and, yes, the information Talbot submitted to the Bureau of Justice booklet, on p. 12, for his Prison program and personal residence is the same address given in all sources for "Story Stone Publishing". It is the retreat center he ran in New Hampshire, and where he lives when he's in the US (he also maintains a home in Germany, I think). Additionally, page 2 of the same booklet sources what Indigenous girl posted above, that everyone just submitted proposals and they are not official Bureau policies: "Points of view and opinions in this document are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of the U.S. Department of Justice or affiliated agencies. The information is not to be taken as a warranty or representation for which JPI assumes legal responsibility. Any use of this information must be determined by the user to be in accordance with the policies of the user's organization and with applicable federal, state and tribal laws and regulations."[6]p.2. For confirmation that the number of prisons he reports is false, as well as the recidivism rate, I'm looking at the other documents now to see if there are usable quotes. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 02:07, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Editing war instigated by disgruntled editors

An extraordinary 2nd AfD was created (following favorable DRV which decided on re-creation of this page, upon presentation of evidence establishing notability.) See full discussion here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Manitonquat_%282nd_nomination%29

An excerpt therefrom: First, apologies for any irregularity in commencing the DRV. Probably I made the faut pas. I'm new to this process, have never been involved in a DRV / AfD discussion before. However belatedly, I'll try to better familiarize myself about this & mend any error that I can.

I'm posting a screenshot of my edit of Jan 7. Please note some of the citations included, which have since been deleted; (presumably by some zealous editors who here claim that I provided no citations.) I'd like to hear explained the deletion of these citations:

• www.ic.org/wiki/manitonquat(Bio article on the website of American network of intentional communities: acknowledging Manitonquat as a notable influencer, involved in the development of intentional communities in the US and other countries, over decades.)

• Columbia Documentary History of Religion in America Since 1945, Columbia University Press (includes extensive interview with Manitonquat regarding Native American influence on New Age spirituality, and his involvement in founding the Rainbow Gatherings.)

• Profiles in Wisdom: Native Elders Speak About the Earth by Steve McFadden

• www.circlewayfilm.com Is there some reason why link to an upcoming documentary feature about Manitonquat's thousands of followers has been deleted?

• Christian Science Monitor article, Sept 17, 1987, page 1 http://postimg.org/image/403v9q1st/ "How the Founding Fathers took a page from the Iroquois book" by J Denis Glover Interview with Slow Turtle, "Supreme medicine man of the Wampanoag nation and executive director of the Massachusetts Commission on Indian Affairs" and Medicine Story, who officiates with Slow Turtle at a ceremony honoring Native American ancestors and the Iroquois League, for their influence in the "foundation for the US Constitution." Manitonquat/Medicine Story is quoted at equal length with Slow Turtle and is clearly a close associate of the "Supreme medicine man of the Wampanoag nation."

It would seem that any evidence which documents Manitonquat's tribal affiliation or notability is what some editors think should be deleted.

There is certainly some shrill emotional tone here: largely from those instigating a second AfD which has been acknowledged here as extraordinary and contrary to policy.

It seems appropriate to question what could possibly have motivated "bizarre" deletions of independent, authoritative sources, supporting notability; documenting that this author is an acknowledged authority on Native American culture & spirituality, a close associate of Wampanoag spiritual leadership, a prominent organizer of intentional communities, and of the Rainbow Gatherings since their inception.

It's an object lesson to see how the history of a man so well-known could be confused, obscured, or made to disappear in this context. Horse Dancing (talk) 18:17, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello User:Horse Dancing. Interviews with the subject, and articles which based on interviews which do not critically examine the content are primary sources, as are fund raising sites. All of the examples you give here have been removed because they are primary sources and wikipedia is based on secondary sources. Stuartyeates (talk) 18:47, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello User:Stuartyeates Thanks for the clarification. But the article at this site is neither an interview, nor a fund raising site: www.ic.org/wiki/manitonquat Right?

Actually the authorship and reliability of http://www.ic.org/wiki/manitonquat www.ic.org/wiki/manitonquat is very unclear to me. It's quite likely to be a copyright-infringing cut and paste of a previous version of this wikipedia article, based on style and presentation. The site has turned off softwware features which might allow visibility of the authorship. I've raised the issue at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Communities_Directory_-_A_Guide_to_Cooperative_Living_by_the_Fellowship_for_Intentional_Community. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:56, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest on part of User:Horse Dancing

• COI Admission by WP:SPA Horse Dancing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log): "I myself was a crowd security specialist, and took part in designing Rainbow security arrangements at several Gatherings. Over the years, I heard Manitonquat speak many times. In the evening enjoyed his performances of traditional Native American medicine stories. Sat in sweat lodges which he led, ... In the wake of a security incident, I sat in councils with him, that went on for days, ... (Incidentally, I've never read any of his books, except to give them a cursory glance over.) ... I offered to make available a letter from Manitonquat himself"[7] (bolding added). As we've assumed, Horse Dancing is too close to this subject to be writing about him, let alone creating articles and arguing in an AfD. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 23:37, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

WP:GRAPES WP:SVT WP:REPEAT WP:WABBITSEASONUser:CorbieVreccan has in recent days been warned by User:Horse Dancing for Vandalism, subtle and otherwise; also concerned in report to Administrator Notice Board:Biographies for vandalism to page in question, and instigating an edit war immediately following a DRV whose outcome was contrary to said user's vote. Also has been notified in https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User_talk:Thparkth that extraordinary emotion demonstrated in this debate suggests advisability that User:CorbieVreccan could, in this case, stand to back off & take a few deep breaths (if I may paraphrase.)

In seeking a balanced view, direct experience of the subject cannot be entirely silenced and disallowed, in favour of ignorant prejudice, or passionate hostility based on complete lack of direct experience. It is certainly significant that the person rushing to shout "COI" is the one who has been previously been named in vandalism allegation. WP:SVT I allege that this COI complaint by User:CorbieVreccan is retaliatory User:Sandstein User:JReferee User:Thparkth

As for COI, my acquaintance with the person who is the topic of the article in question by no means amounts to COI. He is neither family, client, employer, nor any other connection mentioned in COI policy https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest. I have no interest pecuniary or otherwise in the outcome of the discussion. The direct experience of his work which I detailed in the spirit of complete candour explicitly amounts to no more than what a hundred others also saw, in the course of his public appearances. My account also explicit that this occurred most recently in the 1990s, over twenty years ago.

As for CorbieV's use of the word "we": "as we've assumed..." Does the author of this COI claim to be a spokesperson for anyone other than himself? If so, who is this group he represents? As the saying goes "Don't 'we' me..." Horse Dancing (talk) 12:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Horse Dancing You yourself acknowledge a maintained on going relationship in that you are willing and able to provide a current letter from Talbot indicating the origin of conflict regarding his ancestry. You are showing bias in that you do not want to have his ancestry questioned and are willing to go to the extent of direct collaboration with the topic person.Indigenous girl (talk) 15:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Indigenous girl Are you reading the COI policy? https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest Manitonquat is a public figure, not hard to contact. Sorry if I'm too inexperienced to understand that, in case of an article about a living person, it's anything other than logical to try to get their side of the story. Horse Dancing (talk) 17:49, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Horse Dancing So you admit, you have a prior religious (ceremony) and community relationship with him, you are currently in contact with him, getting his side of the story and are participating in making edits to the page? That's a clear conflict of interest to me.Indigenous girl (talk) 18:04, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Can we stick to talking about the subject please? He-said-she-said is irrelevant when we need to be sticking to what the independent reliable sources say. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Stuartyeates Thank you. Horse Dancing (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Rainbow Gatherings and Sources on Prison Work

Is there any point in mentioning that people trip on acid in his sweats at Rainbow Gatherings? If so is this a usable source http://wild-bohemian.com/sweat.htm Indigenous girl (talk) 03:14, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate that there are traditional people who disagree with some of the things that Manitonquat does, in his particular work. Some have attended Rainbow Gathering events, participated, offered teachings there. Others think the whole thing & all New Age stuff is a lot of rot. I don't know if it's worth mentioning whether any substance may have been taken by anyone who attended any event by anyone with a page. I guess the issue would be, is there any record that the author advocated or condoned illegal drugs in writing. I don't think anything like that can be found in his work. Horse Dancing (talk) 12:09, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

@Horse Dancing: There are many Traditional people that disagree with many of the things that Talbot does. It's unfortunate that to the best of my knowledge it is against wiki policy to provide both sides of the story due to the personal research it would require. Just another form of oppression I guess. Dominant culture dictates as always.Indigenous girl (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

@Indigenous girl: My observation is that indigenous topics on Wikipedia in general could do with a deal of improvement. Is there a portal/project? If not maybe there should be one. I think it's pertinent info for the public to understand that there are many different interpretations of Native American traditions. It's not a monolithic homogenous thing any more than Christianity or Islam.Horse Dancing (talk) 17:46, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

@Indigenous girl:, many WP pages include criticism of the subject of the article. It just needs to be reliably sourced and maintain a neutral point of view. There are also policies about living individuals that need to be followed in order to protect both the subject of the article and Wikipedia. If you have reliable sources for criticism, go ahead and make the edits. Now, it's entirely possible someone else will disagree and edit or revert your edits. Then the discussion on the talk page begins!

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 17:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Septegram. When mention was included about the number of prisons he volunteers in with NH DOC and the recidivism rate I sourced directly to NH DOC showing that what Talbot himself wrote on a sourced pamphlet (that is still being used) was grossly inaccurate. The pamphlet is still sourced however the number of prisons and recidivism rate were removed from the article. The source remains and the source contains inaccurate information. It seems that each time material is added or removed in the name of accuracy it's change which in a manner which allows bias to remain. I 'get' that wiki standards function in a manner that makes it difficult to present accurate information with regard to First Nation or Native American topics. It is incredibly frustrating. Especially when there are individuals such as user:Horse Dancing who attempt to disregard or school members of living indigenous community in order to benefit individuals it would seem they have a vested interest in.Indigenous girl (talk) 18:15, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Indigenous girl. The problem is with the PDF https://www.bja.gov/Publications/InCustodyPrograms.pdf ? Looking at the disclaimers in the intro that doesn't look very reliable to me. I'd be tempted to remove the ref and everything directly sourced to it. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:46, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

The thing is, even with the inaccuracies, I think it's more reliable than the mention in New Age author Stephen McFadden's book. Note I am not saying I think McFadden is WP:RS. McFadden, like the pamphlet, is only WP:V in that they both exist in print. McFadden and Talbot are part of the same circle of new age guru-types who help promote one another. Selling "teachings", lectures, workshops and/or ritual experiences on the hippie/new age circuit is how they make their living, so there's not a lot of critical review there. If we remove that, we may have to remove the prison mentions altogether. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, that wasn't all that clear. I think that the pamphlet should only remain if we indicate that the information in it is incorrect. Without corrections, it's not right to put in an inaccurate source. If people feel this can not be done in an NPOV way (I tried), it should probably go, as should the prison claims altogether. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:11, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Stuartyeates The PDF and others like it are not actually BJA generated/vetted publications. If you look at the page for Talbot's org one the and compare it to what's available from the NH DOC it's easy to see that the statistics are fabricated. I think it would actually be in the best interest of wikipedia to remove the reference and sources.Indigenous girl (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

OK, I just checked the other source for the prison claims. He has gone into two prisons in NH (there are only two male prisons, as previously sourced), but the only other source besides McFadden, Spontaneous Evolution, also includes the gross inaccuracies about recidivism rates and the "seven prisons". These are the exact same problems as with the pamphlet. Checking McFadden now. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:21, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
McFadden has no details about the prison work. This is the sole mention of it: "Manitonquat now works with prison inmates and travels the world to tell his stories." Per all of this, I think it has to be reduced to solely that. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:26, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Complete agree and support this change. Thparkth (talk) 20:29, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I just checked McFadden some more. His book is on iUniverse[8]. It's also self-published. I don't think we can use it to source anything but statements McFadden makes about himself. (The book is also chock-full of long-debunked fakelore) - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:33, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Also, do we have any sourcing to support that he still works in the prison system? From his websites and promo materials, it looks like he spends the summers leading retreats in Europe, and when he's in the US he's focusing on fundraising efforts. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:39, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Different take: https://www.bja.gov/Publications/InCustodyPrograms.pdf is actually a reliable source for statements that Manitonquat has been involved in custodial rehabilitation (because the decision to include the program was taken by he government agency) even if the text of the coverage in the source is unreliable. So maybe we say:

As part of a project called Mettanokit, Manitonquat has worked in prison rehabilitation.

Thoughts? Stuartyeates (talk) 21:03, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we can use either self-published fakelore books *or* that pdf that has the gross inaccuracies. See, with all due respect, this is why the article was deleted before. What few sources there are... are not very good. He is really not well known outside of Rainbow hippie and new age circles. Among Indigenous folks, he's most notable for the false claims and ceremony-selling. But there are many people making false claims of that sort who are much more well known, and who spend much more time in English-speaking countries. So even that hasn't been written about much outside of other wikis (the psiram article), blogs and forums. I know from personal research that he has worked with prisoners at at least one New Hampshire prison, but I don't think he does anymore. So the prison work is true, but I don't know if even that can be sourced to WP standards. :( When something can only be "sourced" to pamphlets with gross inaccuracies or self-published stuff with inaccuracies as well, that's a big problem. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:18, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Taken to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Use_of_official_document_compiled_from_submissions. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:24, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Proposed replacement for the books section

WorldCat is a super-reliable source for the contents of the academic libraries in the Western world, so rebuilding the list based primarily on that (plus circle way, which is missing from WorldCat for some reason, but which is touched on in a LOT of other sources) I've got the following list. Probably needs further work. Note the change to 'works' from 'books' to avoid implying that these are all novel-length textual pieces. Feel free to add / tweak. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:35, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Works

• Return to Creation: a survival manual for native and natural people, Bear Tribe Publishing, Spokane, Washington (First Edition, July 1991). 188 pages, 22 cm. ISBN 9780943404202
• The Children of the Morning Light: Wampanoag tales with Mary F. Arquette, Simon & Schuster Children's Publishing (April 1994). 72 pages, color illustrations, 27 cm. ISBN 9780027659054
• Ending violent crime: a report of a prison program that is working and a vision of a society free of violence, Story Stone Publishing (1996). 75 pages, 22 cm. (also eBook) ISBN 9781456584825
• The Circle Way, Story Stone Publishing / self-published (1997) 90 pages.
• The original instructions: reflections of an elder on the teachings of the elders, adapting ancient wisdom to the twenty-first century, Story Stone Publishing. AuthorHouse (2009). 165 pages, 23 cm. ISBN 978-1438980799
• Have you lost your tribe? The paradise on Earth now under construction - Welcome home. Story Stone Publishing. (2011) 378 pages, 22 cm, ISBN 9781461115120
• Thanksgiving Day : let's meet the Wampanoags and the Pilgrims. with Barbara DeRubertis, Thomas Sperling, Adolfo Troncoso and Carol Cucumber. New York, Kane Press. 1992 and 1996 editions. Audio tape + book (32 pages color, 24 cm.). ISBN 0791519139.

Well done. Here, here! I don't think anyone can argue with WorldCatHorse Dancing (talk) 12:17, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Done. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:14, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Issues with name

I'm wondering which language Manitonquat is suppose to derive from? It is not Wampanoag. Manito does not mean medicine, that is an entirely different word. Manito means spirit being. Also the gramatical stucture is wrong for an algonquin based language. Currently the article states Manitonquat "English translation Medicine Story". Right now there is no evidence that it translates to Medicine Story. I don't see how it could. I am taking out the phrase that it is a translation unless somebody can source it.Indigenous girl (talk) 02:28, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

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Reference for death

Note that we need a reference, such as an obituary, before changing the article.--Racklever (talk) 09:42, 20 August 2018 (UTC)