Talk:Manele

Subject matter - Incomplete and generally negative

Manele are criticized for their lyrical content, which often consists of boasts about the singer's supposed sex appeal, intellect, wealth, social status, and superiority over so-called "enemies". Many singers use bad grammar, repetitive and simplistic rhymes suitable for chanting and are sometimes vulgar and/or misogynistic. Manele composers and players also use the term "oriental music" for their creation, and consider their music a sub-genre of traditional, folk Roma music. Traditional Roma music is usually played on classical instruments by a live band (taraf) of lăutari and has classical lyrics, while manele is usually sung by only one performer using modern instruments (generally synthesizers) as backup. Most manele are recorded in small recording studios, owned by the singer himself or by a group of singers, since major recording labels refuse to contract them. However, there are some exceptions: for example, Stana Izbaşa and Nicu Paleru sing live, often with traditional instruments.

This particular section is incomplete, subjective and focuses on the negative aspect of the genre while not addressing the main section topic. I propose completing this section by beginning with an excerpt that addresses the main subjects as well as explains why manele as a musical genre is so popular, and not the political or negative viewpoints on a few of the subjects it encompasses. This explanation ignores and doesn´t address what can arguably consider the largest part of the genre.

Some of the most common topics for this genre are those of love, heart break, infatuation, which the author completely omitted. One quick look at the songs that often top the popularity charts in Romania for this genre reveal that some of the most popular songs and hits contain one of these topics, not just the one the author of that excerpt addresses.

While the style can sometimes be criticized for its simplistic lyrics it should be noted that not all manele can simply be categorized as such and often in music simplistic and memorable lyrics are often an advantage. Like any other genre, it depends on the composer. In general, the distinct features of manele which has sparked their popularity is the combination of soulful singing, recognizable-yet memorable-lyrics, especially in the topics of love and hearbreak. When combined with select and impactful musical voicings and rhythmic beats which inspire dancing, they create a very powerful musical expression. Singers typically express themselves with such genuine human emotion and feelings that when combined with the above characteristics, it becomes a powerful tool for transfering emotions and feelings from the singer to the listener at the deepest level, similarly to other known genres such as American Blues.

Verses take advantage of a mixture of modern Romanian language as well as old Romanian, different dialects as well as slang. Manele often take advantage of the free form wording ability in the Romanian language, which when combined with more rustic expressions, can create the feel of poetry.

To combat the purely opinionated and incorrect statement that attack the lyrical content of the songs, I present an example of a popular song by Florim Salam and Denisa "Iubire Iartă-mă" translated in English.

"Iubire Iartă-mă." Love, Forgive me.

Florin Salam:
Mare greșeală am făcut A big mistake I made
și azi aproape te-am pierdut and last night I lost you
iar eu pe tine jur că te iubesc but I swear that I love you
și tu ești tot ce îmi doresc and you are everything I want

Denisa:
Dacâ pe mine mă doreai If you wanted me
cu altcineva numai erai with someone else you wouldn’t be
și dacă spui că mă iuebști așa and if you say that you love me
cum ai putut să stai cu ea how could you stay with her

Chorus
Floring Salam:
Iubire iartă-mă știu că ți-am greșit... Love, I know that I made a mistake
ai pus la inimă știu ca te-am rănit you took it to heart, I know I wounded you
e numai vina mea ca-ți plânge inima it’s only my fault that your heart is crying
dar promit că mă voi schimba but I promise that I will change

Denisa:
astăzi eu te-aș ierta nu vreau să te pierd today I’d forgive you, I don’t want to lose you
dar mâine nu-aș putea mie să mi-o iert but tomorrow I couldn’t forgive it(the act of forgiveness) to me
poate că într-o zi tu iarăși vei greși maybe one day you will again make a mistake
și eu din nou voi suferi. And I, again, will suffer.

I do not think an explanation is needed to see why this particular piece and many other likes it cannot simply by summarized by the original characterization of this genre. Not only is the article subjective, but wrong, considering a large number of manele fall into this subject category.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexbucam (talk • contribs) 14:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

This is clearly subjective and poorly written

"Manele haters tend to overlook the widely accepted precept that any type of music is merely a question of taste, and that a certain taste in music does not incur a low IQ, lack of education and other such stigmas generally presumed of manele listeners."

So from this we can deduce that if i make a song about how the jews were massacred at Auschwitz and give it an amusing tone, the simple fact that I will be rejected by civilized society is "a matter of taste" ? The "matter of taste issue" is a simplistic way of avoiding responsibility for your actions and choices. If I say that manele is a so-called musical genre that makes a mockery of culture in general, of moral values, of women, and sends the message that all in life can be described in terms of "money, cars, sluts and enemies", then I think we can agree the rejection of this pseudo-music by the upper class is justified. On the same basis as this article, I can say that between artistic expression and plain stupidity there is a thin red line, and the "manelisti" are way beyond it...on the stupid side. I propose that the above citation from the article be removed, as it stands no real ground and it's presence in that certain section is completely against Wikipedia's NPOV policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.180.224.38 (talk) 12:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

This is highly subjective

"... their clothes usually don't match and are of bad taste and ..."

What exactly is bad taste? Who defines it?

I think the whole article needs revisioning.

translated directly "prost gust" is "bad taste", but "prost gust" means with no sense of style —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.43.217.25 (talk) 14:23, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

rugaminte...

Rog toti iubitorii de manele sa contribuie cu articole despre fiecare interpret, discografii, poze....

Cu simpatie, Macedon19

Nope, sorry, we don't place pictures of gypsy houses and stolen BMW's here.

Macedon19, this is not a discography page. This page just tries to give an objective definition of the term, along with other various facts usually found in an encyclopedia.

There were a couple of swearing reactions here. --Vlad 23:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Saracu' Macedon... nu stie ca toti sunt cu el doar la chefuri cand e beat, ca in rest...

Macedon19 is a real manele listener his culture is reflected by his alias Macedonu19 - probably he is 19 thi is his way of beeing "cool"...we must not ban these people we must help them improve their lives. They just need help and we are the only ones that can teach them a better way

Does a can of gas help?

Esti batut in cap. Eu nu ascult manele, dar asta nu inseamna ca doresc moartea cuiva care asculta un gen care mie nu-mi place. Mai du-te la un consult psihologic, intreg la minte nu esti daca doresti moartea unui om pentru simplul motiv ca asculta ceva ce tu nu asculti. kthxbb. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.120.132.92 (talk • contribs) 13 Feb 2006.

hello...my name is Vlad and i'm from Satu Mare Romania. I would like to help u understand this delicate subject a little :) Not only the music inspires "bad taste" because it contains 2-5 distinct sentences that keep repeting...a lot of gramar misspeling and the song themes are the same....but also the people that listen to them:-iq below averege(prosti da multi==> stupid but a lot of them)..they dress bad...dont know how to behave in society .... think they are above everyone else and dont have common sence.Rude+stupid+bad taste => manele & manelisti. They hate all that its pure and good...make a fool of themselves at cultural events because they don't know how to behave !!!! PS:...not all ,there are some exceptions..but ask any person in theyr right mind or with a iq above averege and they will answer : "nu ascult manele..sunt o prostie!!!<>i don't listen to manele...because its the garbage of music in romania!!!" OH...and i forgot to mention.......all theyr negatives are stolen ===> the lack of creativity :)

---

Vlad, you're making a cool of yourself here by making accusations you can support. PS. Kill 'em all 1983... OH all those hoo think manele should be supported, should visit this damned country and meet at least 10 fans of manele... !..!, they'll understand VLAD.

---

For this is a talk page, one must express his or her own opinions on the subject. My opinion is that manele has such a wide circle of... i'll call them fans, even though it isn't my intention, due to the low degree of education, a certain limitation of one's ability to think and/or the possible lack of knowledge of other, superior music genres. To be honest, 90% of manele listeners I have met, were simple minded, used a faulty language and lacked certain social abilities. The small percentage of Romanians who do not listen to manele, who usually listen to rock music (myself included within this comunity) or house music, think of manele as a plague, not a music genre, a proof to that is the fact that, in Romanian, it cannot be called "muzica manele", as other genres may allow: "muzica pop", "muzica rock" or "muzica house". As they say in JAG, I rest my case. [Darth Dodo]

---

Merely Liking a certain type of music does not make you more or less inteligent than anybody else. Personally I am not to fond of Dance/house/garage/jungle etc, or rap, gangsa' or otherwise, but I do not lable people because they like it. This is my 'PERSONAL' preferance, I do not stigmatise those that do enjoy this sort of music. This is how it should be. Is there any hard evidence that manele fans are less inteligent than people that dislike the music?

As an ethnomusicologist I have studied the musics originating from Romania and personally I 'am' saddened by the invasion of manele at the detriment to more traditional 'muzica populara' but devising and perveying steriotypes based on personal distain for a social group is wrong. This is an international website, therefore shouldn't you be trying to quash many of the steriotypes that people hold for the Romanians instead of Reinforcing old ones and attempting to introduce new ones?

As for 'Manele' I have already expresed my feelings on that, but you must bear in mind that as an artform it is still very young, give it time it may get better, after all some of the manele artists practicing today are very accomplished musicians (Minune for example) and good musicians are rarely happy with doing the same thing for any length of time without attempting to advance their 'genre'. Who knows maybe in 10 years time he'll be releasing manele albums that even you may like Vlad!

David Adams, UK/Bucarest

Weird abbreviation

In lead: what is sg.? Not an abbreviation I'm familiar with, I'm guessing not English, should be expanded to whatever it means. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

"Singular". bogdan 14:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah. English uses sing. But no reason not to spell it out. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Like ft. for feet, three characters instead of four. :-) bogdan 22:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Cut from article

Although the rockers and hip-hopers have nothing to share with manelisti(cocalari), it seems that they always have something against the other two genders. For them a person who listens to somethig else then manele is either a satanic/unwashed persons(rockers) or just stupid(hip-hopers), although the other two genres are more popular and much older then their music they seem to loathe it. Even more, each time they see one of the representatives of the two genres, they imediately get very beligerant(abusive) not only with words but with actions as well —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.125.117.40 (talk • contribs) 13 Dec 2005.

Removed this comment from the article - the anon may be right:

• • A comment, I am not the writer of this article, I would like to state that this article is highly subjective and inaccurate. Even though I'm not a fan of the genre, I think manele deserve to be put in a better light than this.

CDC (talk) 22:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The original article has a core of objectivity. Still, it presents the subject strongly biased by the stereotype and can not be relied on for serios judgement. It lacks scientific knowledge, and is far from actual truth.

I am not a listener of this music, I am a psychology student.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.247.48.23 (talk • contribs) 10 Jan 2006. dark_angel080887@yahoo.co.uk...Srry and i'm a rapper :D (but i listen to rock,house and club 2)

"Naşpa"

With reference to this edit, now reverted, Ronline left this rather interesting message on my user talk page.

The article on manele refers to the music in the entire Southeastern European region, so I think the naşpa insertion is not particularly appropriate, since it's a Romanian word. Naşpa is the short form of naşparliu, which, in its original meaning, means something akin to witty (it's similar to "golănaş", and isn't used as an insult). At least that's how it's used in Transylvania. AFAIK, its new usage in Bucharest is slightly different - naşparliu is sometimes used as a synonym for those who try to be "cool" or "trendy". The "naşpa" character may be characterised by poor taste and manners (prost gust), self-centredness, an inconsiderate nature (nesimţire), and a like of manele, which has a poor reputation. It's used to refer to those, often from low-education backgrounds, who want to appear as trendy and "up there" but do so in poor taste. The term is often - quite unjustly - likened to Roma urban culture sometimes. So, the addition has some grounding, since naşpa is used in some contexts as a negative term. The article should probably explain the situation more clearly, however. Thanks, Ronline ✉ 00:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

As he says, this probably doesn't really belong in the article on manele, but I'd say there ought to be some Wiktionary material here. I'm not sure what is going on with Romanian-to-English in Wiktionary; if someone is working on that, this would be worth following up. - Jmabel | Talk 01:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Naşpa is actually a word of Rroma origin. 68.32.214.27 00:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

TV broadcasting

Well, I think almost all the stations broadcast manele:

• Antena 1 - they were probably the first...
• ProTV and AcasăTV - http://stiri.acasa.ro/19193.html
• TarafTV - non-stop manele :-(
• Tele7ABC (bankrupt already?)
• OTV - of course... (OTV is a "troll" station, their purpose is to create scandals :-)
• NaţionalTV - [1]
• PrimaTV - [2]

So, I wouldn't say that they generally avoid them... bogdan 09:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Trying to bring some NPOV

I've tried to point the fact that mostly male manele singers are referred in the paragraph about their dressing style. I've removed the observation about the weight of jewels (it isn't a rule or something & I'm not sure that anyone went to such a person & asked to measure that! :) I've changed the "always" to "usually" when talking about cars. Then in the Public opinion section I've added info about Romanian TV programs for the New Year's Eve (actually, I witnessed them) and about something that I did not witnessed, but heard reports about it. Finally, I've removed the External Links sections, as they contained only Anti-Manele information. I would agree with such links if there were at least 3 other links pro-manele (or related to the article, as this is entitled Manele & not Anti-Manele). --Vlad 23:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Whoa! This is an active discussion page. Just letting you all know that I added the CBC audio podcast (just forgot to sign in). Airing live right now, I think it's a very interesting musical form. Maltiti 00:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 18:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Putin de bun simt..

Im a manele listener. Howewer, i dont despise any other music and i dont go vandalising and POV-ising other music genre pages. I just ask that somebody should make the article and put it into the right shape, showing and presenting this genre whith good things, and bad things, equally. As it is. Macedon

i understand that, but you cannot deny that most manele fans are of poor taste and manners. i`m not saying that i or any fan of any other kind of genre is indeed well mannerd and such, but at least some of us (by us i refer to rockers since i am a rock fan and i know a lot of people just like me) know when to shut up and admit that we are wrong. the most frustrating thing about manelisti is that they never sit down with someone who doesnt like manele and try to explain why they listen to manele, and why they loath rock and such. also, most (about 75% for all i know) of the manelisti acctually assault rockers if they are out-numbered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.105.78.222 (talk • contribs)

Dear rock fan, please observe: WP:NPA and WP:CIV! Thank you! --Vlad|-> 22:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Though the article might seem biased, it's actually pretty close to the truth! Sure there are some ( or many ) that do not fall into the particular descriptions made on the said page, but they are exceptions! And no matter how much of a fan you are, it's impossible to deny that the manele singers ( the great majority of them anyway ) lack any culture whatsoever, nor can you call false/biased the fact that the manele lyrics suggest and support rasism, misogynism, violence, antisocial behaviour and all in all bothering people ( "scoate boxele in geam"? ). Ulf

-- Ulf, Please define culture. Also, your quote "scoate boxele in geam" does not support your claim that "manele lyrics suggest and support rasism, misogynism, violence, antisocial behaviour", you must come up with some evidence before making such serious accusations.

82.76.161.38 16:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)andrei

"Euphemistically"

"…the lyrics contain bad grammar (euphemistically speaking)…": The euphemism escapes me: what the heck does this mean? - Jmabel | Talk 05:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

You're on Wikipedia, mate! Search! Or go here: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Euphemism !

Tag

Added unsourced tag. Nothing in this article contains references or sources.--Isotope23 15:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Too gentle

This article fails to properly illustrate the poor quality of this music genre (and I'm sure my fellow Romanians who dislike the manele know what I'm talking about). A thing that caught my eye was the comparison with rap music and I regard it highly inappropriate. Romanian rap tries to awake us from the lethargy induced by the communists, while the manelisti (manele singers) only teach us to show off and be cocky.

---- Just a comment. I agree with the initial statement, as a heavy metal listener and fellow Romanian, but I don't consider that the comparison with rap or hip-hop music is entirely wrong. The main ideas of some Romanian rap or hip-hop lyrics are, indeed, related to a national "awakening", unlike those of manele lyrics. However, the means of transmitting such ideas often, if not always, involve explicit, coarse language, which is in fact the main attraction for the young ones, along with the concept of "fighting the system". Also, when high ideals aren't dealt with, the main themes of hip-hop or rap music are alchohol or drug consumption, illegal activities(such as theft or organized crime--see B.U.G. Mafia or La Familia) or just pointless swearing, again, points of attraction for unguided teenagers and similarities with manele. Furthermore, if we take the lyrics of certain songs of certain American rappers and translate them into Romanian, the result wouldn't be far from a common manea, and let's not forget the 'blings', limos, Cristal Champagne or other apparel and accessories of said rappers. Rappers and hip-hoppers, the succesful ones at least, promote cockiness and showing off as well, albeit in a different color scheme and sound.

---

Actually I think the comparison with hip-hop is unfair. If you think about the lyrics of the most popular Manele and Hip Hop singers, Romanian rap concentrates a lot on bad things (drugs, poverty, criminality), while Manele promotes a more optimistic outlook on life (having fun, making money) - despite the occasional 'my girl isn't treating me rigt' type of song :)

That's all this music is about dude, having fun. And it's very good at that. It's got a great rythm that just makes you wanna dance, have fun and feel alive. The lyrics are not supposed to have any deeper meaning, the singer isn't trying to define no philosophy or teach you anything. Music isn't supposed to tell you what to live for anyway.

82.76.161.38 18:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC) andrei

Maybe Manele is more specifically like U.S. "Dirty South" hip hop, which is extremely repetitive, very dependent on samples, and glorifies a violent, sex-filled, machismo lifestyle (executed in mangled English)?

Remove personal opinions

"The issue is the influence of such music and the ideeas and concepts promoted by the genre on it's audience. Many intellectuals compare it with the new-wave of hip-hop/rap music that impacts Romanian youth, but unlike the hip-hoppers and rappers who, aldough sometimes vulgar, speak about the hardships in a transitional Romania and urge the public to take action and warn about the dangers of present society and the corruption of statesmen, the manelists are, in a way, the product of a corrupt transitional environment. To them, bending or breaking the law to gain money or respect is the norm, and the self-sufficient condition to gain the wealth (and cars and the attention of women) that they sing about. In a Romania with few cultural beacons, this type of approach to the poverty and corruption problem has influenced the minds of many young people without the basic education and principles (and also the musical eduaction) to distinguish between what is good and what is bad."

This whole paragraph is too judgmental and should be changed. "...in a way, the product of a corrupt transitional environment. To them, bending or breaking the law to gain money or respect is the norm..." - that's clearly personal opinion and therefore does not belong here.

--

I edited it to this:

"The issue is the influence of such music and the ideeas and concepts promoted by the genre on it's audience. Many intellectuals compare it with the new-wave of hip-hop/rap music that impacts Romanian youth, but they consider that unlike the hip-hoppers and rappers who, although sometimes vulgar, speak about the hardships in a transitional Romania and urge the public to take action and warn about the dangers of present society and the corruption of statesmen, the manelists are, in a way, the product of a corrupt transitional environment."

82.76.161.38 16:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC) andrei

i do not think that " To them, bending or breaking the law to gain money or respect is the norm, and the self-sufficient condition to gain the wealth (and cars and the attention of women) that they sing about. " is a personal opinion . it is the true . Remember songs like " Vine politia " ( The police comes ) with lyrics as " The police comes/takes all my stuff" , or all - time favourites like " mr. policeman , do not get angry / let's talk , maybe we'll come to an agrement "( aranjam ceva ) - regarding bribe . the fact that a lot of these songs discuss the nature of robbing , beating ( the enemies ) ,or deals with the police is evidence enough to support the sentence that has been deleted . therefor , i shall restore it . costin

...manele is a genre , just like any other type of music , that is adressed to the public , it's perfectly normal to have different opinions on the subject ( hate them , or love them) , i , for one am not a fan but everyone has his own taste in music , as about the lyrics , they are similar to some of the hip-hop lyrics (*the talk about money , women , cars and how "fly" the artists are) - ont only the lower class of popultion listens to them , i have seen fans of the genre even on the romanian political scene (i'm not saying they are all higly educated) , it's a fact that shows the popularity manele have in romania though the music is mostly computer-enhanced and covers of known songs (mainly ruining them) they managed to move up and make lots of money and even build influence in the political society. after all that's mostly all, that is what this music is to the it's singers an promoters... [strictly my point of view] (podo)

But, y'know, it's interesting: people tend to judge lyrics of different types of performers differently. When Dan Helciug sings "Şuţu", no one thinks that he himself is a pickpocket. But when a manelişt says more or less the same, he is presumed to be talking about his own life, or at least his own real values, in that it is assumed that his admiration for such a character is unalloyed. - Jmabel | Talk 03:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

"Illegally adapting songs"?

WTF? Article currently says " ... with manele singers illegally adapting popular songs from Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey.". Is this true? Is it actually illegal to adapt such songs? (I assume this refers to Romanian law.) I highly doubt it. Cite, please. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 17:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

If they take copyrighted songs and steal the melody and/or translate the words without credit (and royalties) they probably would be violating copyright law. - Jmabel | Talk 15:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm no expert on copyright law, but my guess would be that if someone translates a work into another language, that constitutes original art that wouldn't be subject to copyright restrictions. (I could be wrong, though.) ==ILike2BeAnonymous 18:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are wrong. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty knowledgable in this area; among other things, my late father was a publisher.

Ignoring for the moment the fact that the music itself can be copyrighted, a translation is normally considered a derivative work: the original elements may be copyrighted, but the original must still be licensed. Properly speaking, though, it is a "derivative work" only if appropriate permission was obtained from the copyright holder of the original. Otherwise, it is a "copy" and is subject to a lawsuit as a copyright infringement. - Jmabel | Talk

"CUM SA FACI O MANEA DE SUCCES IN 10 PASI SIMPLI"(even retards can do it, my mistake manelists ARE retards)

- PASUL 1
- Nume de bastan (Elvis, Florin Fermecatoru', Englezu', etc).
-
- PASUL 2
- Incultura generala obligatorie.
-
- PASUL 3
- IQ mai mic decat numarul de la pantofi. Castigarea unui loc in categoria prosti, dar multi.
-
- PASUL 4
- Posesie (sau achizitionare pe parcurs) limuzina, castel, faraoanca si boraci (puradei).
-
- PASUL 5
- Rude-n puscarie.
-
- PASUL 6
- Imagine
-
- I. Bijuterii - Lant, ghiul si bratara de aur - mai mult de ½ din greutatea corporala
-
- II. Freza - 2 parti gel, o parte par
-
- III. Hainele - Cat mai stralucitoare si de prost gust
- a. Camasa (alba sau neagra)
- b. Pantaloni (preferabil negri)
- c. Pantofi de lac
- d. Vesta, manta sau capa
-
- PASUL 7
- Versuri
-
- I. Vocabular obligatoriu: "bani, dusmani, tigani, golani, femei, fetite, printesa, bautura, dolari, aur, parai, lovele, milionar, Mercedes, celular, inima, suflet, Dumnezeu, viata, valoare".
- Interjectii: "oooooooof, ah, sha-la-la, cicalaca-cichicha" etc
-
- II. Sunt admise
- a. greseli gramaticale
- b. verbe - conjugare si acord
- c. substantive - plural la alegere
- d. greseli de tipul "la toti", "lu' copilu' meu" si din seria "casa" - "as vrea ca sa te regasesc"
- e. versuri albe
- f. rime cu acelasi cuvant
- g. metafore duse la extrem ("floarea florilor", "sugativa-n portofel")
- h. cuvinte straine ("bambina", "ragazza", etc)
-
- PASUL 8
- Subiecte:
-
- I. iubirea
- a. relatiile:
- 1. cu mai multe femei
- 2. reusite
- 3. nereusite (vezi parasire)
- b. parasire
- 1. pentru altul / alta (merge si homo)
- 2. pentru bani
- 3. pentru ambele
- 4. moarte
-
- II. familia
- a. copiii
- b. nevasta
- c. fratele - bunastare, parasire sau lauda
-
- III. banii
- a. detinerea lor in cantitati mult exagerate
- b. risipa fireasca
- c. invidia celorlalti
-
- IV. lauda proprie (bogatie, bunastare, performante sexuale, sex-appeal, performante muzicale)
-
- PASUL 9
- Melodia
-
- I. instrumente consacrate
- a. acordeon
- b. orga proasta
- c. instrument de suflat
- d. tobe de sintetizator cu generozitate
-
- II. voce
- a. optionala si/sau chinuita
- b. ecou
- c. accent obligatoriu
- d. rap inclus
-
- III. originalitate facultativa
-
- PASUL 10
- Videoclip
-
- I. miscari necesare (pt. manelist)
- a. stanga-dreapta (maxim doi pasi)
- b. pocnire din degete
- c. zambet cuceritor
-
- II. 15-20 de fete dotate care sa-si agite echipamentul
-
- III. decor prost (sau inexistent)
-
- IV. lumini cat mai colorate
-
- V. cateva masini decapotabile in care sa cante barosanu'

Any chance of providing an English translation? This could be quite entertaining. +ILike2BeAnonymous 15:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't intend to collapse all the text above, but I'm too lazy to reformat it (only garbage on a talk page, after all). +ILike2BeAnonymous 15:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll try and do this

How to make a manea in 10 easy steps

Step 1
Cool name (Elvis, Florin the Charmer, Englishman, etc).
Step 2
Imposed general lack of culture.
Step 3
IQ smaller than own shoe size (winning you a place in the category of "dumb, but a lot of them")
Step 4
Posession (or aquisition in the process) of limousine, castel, pharaoh woman (here, meaning female worthy of a pharaoh) and munchkins (children)
Step 5
Relatives in jail
Step 6
Image

I. Jewels - gold chain, ring and bracelet, weighting more than half your body weight

II: Hairstyle - 2 measures hair gel, one measure hair

III. Clothing - the shinier and distasteful, the better

a. Sheen shirt (white or black)

b. Pants (prefferably black)

c. Laquered shoes

d. Vest, cloak or cape

Step 7
Lyrics

I. Compulsory vocabulary - money, enemies, gypsies, punks, women, girls, princess, booze, dollars, gold, bucks, cash, millionare, Mercedes, cellular (phone), heart, soul, God, life, value

II. Interjections: oooooooof, ah, sha-la-la, cicalaca - cichicha

III. To be included:

a. grammatical errors

b. verbs - no regard for conjugation and agreement (of gender / singular/pluaral)

c. nouns - plural of your choosing

d. errors such as - of everybody (as in Take the money of everybody), of my child and the home (RO = casa) family - I want to be of finding you (Vreau ca sa te gasesc)

e. white lines

f. rhyming with the same word

g. extreme metaphors ("flower of flowers", "wallet blotter")

h. foreign words ("bambina", "ragazza", etc.)

Step 8
Subject matter

I. Love

a. relationships

1. with many women

2. successsfull

3. unsuccesssfull (see dumping below)

b. dumping

1. for another man/woman (gay ok)

2. for money

3. for both

4. death

II. Family

a. children

b. wife

c. brother - wealth, dumping, praise

III. Money

a. ownership of highly exagerated amounts

b. naturally wasting

c. envy from others

IV. Self praise (richness, wealth, sexual performances, sex appeal, musical talent)

Step 9
Melody

I. dedicated instruments

a. accordion

b. off-key electronic organ

c. blowing instrument (trumpet, panflute)

d. generously applied synthetised drums

II. Voice

a. optional and/or overdone

b. echo

c. compulsory accent

d. rap passages

III. originality is optional

Step 10
The video

I. necessary movement (of the manelist)

a. left-right (2 steps maximum)

b. snapping of fingers

c. charming (conquering) smile

II. 15-20 gifted girls to jiggle their rack

III. Inexpressive or inexistent backgroun

IV. colourful lights

V. some cabrio cars from which the big bosssigns

This list was first found on a joke site (I can't find out which) but can now be found on several joke sites, blogs and forums - it is quite well known in the Romanian internet society (if one can call it that)

New article

I have added an article with a decent and civil content regarding the tagline Muie Maneliştilor adopted by the manele contesters.Ex Pluribus Unum 09:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I've placed my comment preemptively opposing deletion of this article on its discussion page. (Even though I disagree vehemently with the concept of the article.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Read this—very important

hi the first thing i want to write is that manele is NOT a music style -belive me: i have heared enough of them so i am sure about it.

the second is that they inspire a lack of culture to young generations and have realy bad taste in chlotes. they sing only about drink women enemies money

for example one of the most imoprtant manelis Adrian the wonder child said about the akropolis in athen that is a place where the bosses were living and having cool houses. he didn't understant the cultural importance of that place.

also for them "For them a person who listens to somethig else then manele is either a satanic/unwashed person(rockers) or just stupid(hip-hopers),"

and try not to understand that we must kill them or something like this just not to lisen and try to understand that manele is NOT a music style .

Thank you for sharing that with us, dearie. But sorry, no: manele is definitely a style of music. Just one that, apparently, you don't like. So noted. +ILike2BeAnonymous 00:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly , on the same basis, rolling a tin can on some stairs is a kind of music. Just one you do not like. A fart is also music... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.180.224.38 (talk) 12:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Manele is a musical genre .. period !! , same as Rap or hiphop ! ... it has varying styles and influences from different musical backgrounds (Balkan folk music, Reggae-ton , indian- hindi , R 'n' B , General POP) its a mish-mash of styles and plagiarised music, which is no worse that what Rap/hiphop and R'n'B have done for decades, Its quite annoying to hear the outright negativity towards Manele, Yes it may be crass in some cases , but it is melodic and does have musical merit. It seems that in other balan countries there folk music has a great respect, i think that unfortunately its a cultural and racist sterotype, as its well know how much romania hates the roma community , granted they can be trouble in some cases. But are equally treated badly by the Romanian government and are looked down upon. I'm not Romanian and not a native speaker, so see it from my side of the fence . I think Manele is a growing entity and potencially worldwide appeal ,its an underground movement , quality of the music and production last few years has got it to a Decent production standard. The music and lyrics are not too serious for sure .. I think most mainstream music has become way to serious since the 1980's ended ! ))) , Manele brings back the lullaby back to pop music, most Manele / Romani singers are always smiling and have uplifting lyrics positive vibe mostly. )) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.252.80.100 (talk) 03:51, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

a reason

manele is not a music style. i spoke with people that have a clue about music. even our teachers tell us manele is not a music style because they can't be sing using musical notes or on the thing C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

If you have any published sources on this subject let us know, but please understand that citing what your teachers say is not enough. For the moment this article doesn't have any references, and this is not okay. — AdiJapan ☎ 10:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying that if someone can't *read* music, or a music can't be expressed in writing, it's not music? That's very inaccurate, as many contemporary music styles are too complex for such representation. Listen to an Aphex Twin song for example. Could you say that IDM or Drun'n'Bass music for example isn't music?

Despite the fact that I dislike manele, I respect its right to be labeled as music, since any form of organized music fits in the category. Let's stop being elitist bastards, and accept this kind of music as part of Romania. Exeprime 01:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Calu Minune

Any reason for dropping Calu Minune? - Jmabel | Talk 20:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Trick sentence

"Many intellectuals compare it with the new wave of hip-hop/rap music that impacts European and American youth or reggaeton/reggae in South and Central America."

Which intellectuals? A few examples backed by references would be nice, otherwise I suggest removing the sentence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Exeprime (talk • contribs) 16 December 2006.

The intellectual part should really be removed but there is a good point there comparing it to hip-hop/reggaeton etc since the lyrics are very similar to reggaeton and to those of some mainstream hiphop artists like 50cent and G-unit (except for the violence part).—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.104.216.79 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 12 February 2007

Here is your reference http://news.4romania.com/Romania-din-caraibe_71905.html Arina01 (talk) 15:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

music gender

"manele is one of the most popular music gender" Realy... so there are males, females and manele. The later being "the most popular".

About manele

There seems to be a lot of tension in Romania about this subject. Perhaps it would be better for a foreigner to try and write the article. Any romanian author would surely take sides in this so called "manele war". I think that there are some similarities beetwen manele and hip hop:they both can be rude or offensive, they both were created by minorities amd they both sing about conflicts with rivals, power, money and love in a sort of boastfull way. The difference is hip hop became fashionable in the usa and afterwords in the whole world while the manele's sphere of influence is limited to Romanias boundries. I'm not quite fond of this musical genre but I feel I should warn all you manele haters :"If you fight it, it will become stronger." There is no such thing as bad publicity and if you try to ban this music or censor it, you will only help their sales. Be careful or instead of dr.dre, puff diddy or snoop dog, you're going to have to watch guta, salam and costi de la valcea on MTV.

By the way i think the following paragraph featured in the article is a quite offensive to manele listeners and porcupines : But the Romanian intellectual class and others oppose this musical movement mostly because it's the most sucky and brainwashing piece of crap and most people would rather fuck a porcupine and shove a cactus up their ass than listen to this kind of "music". And I don't think there should be links to sites from where you can download manele

The article

This article was quite a disgrace, and even if hate the genre, and would like to see it vanish, I think the article deserves better, because "manele" is, after all, a social phenomenon. I tried to reference some of the remarks in the article, and added both some sourced negative outlooks (coming from manele's biggest critics) but also some positive outlooks on the style. I hope I wasn't too POV in my edits, and if I was, feel free to rv/edit/copyedit etc. Thanks. --Xanthar 07:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Appreciate the effort to clean it up (it was, still is a mess), but as I indicated in my remarks to you, I think you ought to consider editing this article "at arm's length", since you admitttedly hate the music, which as you might imagine probably makes it hard for you to be objective. But thanks anyway.

Another thing, not just to you but to any Romanian editors: do you think you could try to find some references in English? The Romanian references, while no doubt appropriate and authoritative, are inaccessable to us English speakers. I can imagine it won't be easy finding English sources, but they would be appreciated. +ILike2BeAnonymous 08:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Gianni negromanul de bauxita? Well [[3]] Google never heard of the guy... Neither did I. So I guess it's a fake. --Xanthar 23:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

"Howlers"

Why this word, in the narrative voice of the article? It is certainly pejorative. - Jmabel | Talk 22:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Done some cleanup

Mainly fixing typos and translations, but I must point out to you that 6 out of 10 references lead to the same newspaper's website, and there may be a chance(or risk) that they may be biased, so some other sources would be a lot better.

Oh, and I'll remove that "Pictures of manele players" link too, that's merely an attempt to spam! LarryLaffer 19:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Aaand, more cleanup

I've removed some of the external links(especially one that kept demanding I downloaded and installed some obscure "manele browser"), and I've also added a comment asking people to stop advertising their sites here! Don't think it'll work though! LarryLaffer 15:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Sadly it didn't. Did some removing myself.. and will keep removing if they keep adding their @#$^ links. --Maxkool (talk) 08:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

This Manele page on Wikipedia is totaly useless, and defaimatory to Romania

This "things" can't even be regarded as music. It's just full of bad taste, stupid lirics that teach people to disregard common sense, disregard honesty, and apreciate money, money and more money.They teach kids that all that maters is money, and nothing else. Lirics are full of hatred and violence. It's an insult to consider this as "romanian music". It's just awful junk. Call it anything u want, but not romanian. It's a disgrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Choice777 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Embarrasing comment - It is Romanian weather you like it or not. Let's see - Maria Tanase was singing "Butelcuta Me" and "Bun ii Vinul Ghiurghiuliu"- it's about drunkards. And "Mi-am pus busuioc in par it's about attracting men".

Among the songs about honest working people we can quote "Marinica dragalasul, Marinica zis codasul" sau "Drag imi e badita cu tractorul". Proaste cantece si da' cinstite romanesti.Arina01 (talk) 15:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

"Public Opinion" and "Controversy"

Why are "Public Opinion" and "Controversy" two separate sections? - Jmabel | Talk 19:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Fara numar!

This expresion comes from the habit of some rich guys to throw (literally) money at the singers. It is a show of wealth and some of them say "Fara numar, fara numar!!", to show that they don't count and don't care how much money are. Don't know how this should be included (if at all) in the article.MihaiC (talk) 10:56, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Umm... Objective?

"People belonging to the latter group are generally prejudiced against those pertaining to the former. Manele haters tend to overlook the widely accepted precept that any type of music is merely a question of taste, and that a certain taste in music does not incur a low IQ, lack of education and other such stigmas generally presumed of manele listeners."

I, personally, find this part very offensive. Especially the first sentence. Just because I'm sick and tired of being blasted wherever I go with loud speakers, that play something I don't even consider to be music, but more like awful noise, doesn't mean I'm a racist, an ignorant or that I like insulting people. I don't care who listens to it (as long as it's not me) or who plays it and it's not so much an issue of taste, as it is of public noise concern, since you can't go into a lot of public places, withouth hearing a stereo that has manele on or can't even walk towards somewhere, without a car stopping at a zebra crossing, that has MAXIMUM volume with manele on. A lot of times, it's not even at a crossing, some jack a** parks his or her car near your flat, turns the volume up to max and then opens all the car doors. What are we supposed to do, wear headphones all the time? Excuse my "prejudiced" comment, but I happen to live that kind of an experience, on a daily basis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crawling (talk • contribs) 15:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

== Disgusting This article is awful, just awful. I don't like this "manele" genre; i find it stupid, repulsive and annoying, a waste of human resources... but this is a freaking encyclopedia not a place for 15 year old Romanian rock fans to express their hatred. I noticed that on the talk page most, (if not all) of those who wrote, are rock fans. Why do these people contribute to this article, how can they possibly know anything of this genre if they loath it and obviously don't listen to it? A comparison would be a geographer writing a historical article, a person that hasn't seen a film, to write it's plot summary, or a manele listener adding info on the article about the bands Vama Veche or Parazitii. Why are these people even reading the article in the thousands?

This whole thing is just absurd. The lowest level reached by the article was the part about "wearing too much parfume"... WTF?? How the hell can that be scientifically measured? What does that even mean? and how is it relevant to a musical genre? I do not like manele, i am glad they are not as popular as they used to be... but come on... it's just fucking music. You can be an ignorant, uneducated asshole even if you listen to rock or hip hop music.

PS to "Crawling": Two days ago there was a rock, punk whatever concert in Parcul Tabacariei in Constanta that played music on a sunday night until 3 in the morning. I live more than 10 streets away from where the concert took place and still could hear them playing their music much too loud. Does that mean i should hate every kid that went to that concert or the band that played ? ? Please realize how absurd you all are. 89.35.62.12 (talk) 02:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Romania

I recently came back to this page for the first time in a while, and the lead paragraph did not even mention Romania as one of the places where this music is prevalent. Unless I'm mistaken, it is more prevalent there than anywhere else (something borne out by most of the rest of the article, I might add). I have re-added that.

The article is woefully lacking in citations. A significant musical genre deserves much more of an article than this. It's not a matter of whether the music is to each of our individual tastes, this is an encyclopedia, not a work of criticism. - Jmabel | Talk 20:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Jmabel

The author of the article is mistaken about the origin of the genre. According to wiki [[4]] The Turks did not rule Hungary after the end of the 17th century.The territory was divided into Sanjaks (provinces), with the highest ranking Ottoman official being the Pasha of Buda. The Phanariotes did not rule in Hungary.

If the tunes were brought by Phanariotes (suzerans)then the music was prevalent in Bucharest and Jassy - the capitals of Valachia and Moldova Arina01 (talk) 15:04, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Poorly written

This article is written very poorly. The "Subject matter" section is way too long, with too many quotes. And many of those quotes are irrelevant. Also, the "cocalar" part doesn't make any sense. "Public opinion" and "Criticism" are one and the same thing, since criticism comes from the public, and the links to manele radios have nothing to do with the article. You don't see links to rock stations on the Rock music page.CaptainFugu (talk) 19:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Source offer

While doing some research for a WP topic, I happened to find a very interesting and extensive English language reliable source about the topic of this article, which, unlike most Romanian sources, seems to be NPOV (I just scanned through it, so I can't guarantee 100%): Margaret H. Beissinger, "Muzică Orientală": Identity and Popular Culture in Postcommunist Romania. I don't currently have the time to expand/reference this article, so if anyone is interested in improving this article, please e-mail me (using the Wikipedia "E-mail this user" function. you may want to leave a note on my talk page too, for a speedy reply).Anonimu (talk) 22:23, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Please, please someone take this on! (Also, I just want to say: while still not great, the article is so much better than it was a couple of years ago.) - Jmabel | Talk 02:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Someone may want to add refs to Adrian Copilul Minune or it could go up in smoke in the latest WikiDrama (unreferenced BLPs deleted on sight). See the WikiProject page for more. Pcap ping 21:06, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

{{Editsemiprotected}}

Not done: No request actually made. Mauler90 _talk 00:35, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:18, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Manele → Manea – The page should be listed with the singular form of the noun,. The current name is "Manele" and it is the plural form of the genre. TudorTulok (talk) 12:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I revoke the move, but the name is still confusing.--TudorTulok (talk) 12:58, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The current title is probably better, according to Manele#Etymology and usage and as it seems to be more commonly used when referring to the genre. It couldn't be moved to just "Manea", as disambiguation is needed, and "Manele" would probably be the most suitable unambiguous title (as well as being consistent with other Wikipedias). Peter E. James (talk) 20:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - per WP:COMMONNAME RashersTierney (talk) 09:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

singers listed in this article

Apparently Denisa, Sorin Copilul de Aur, and Laura Vass are not worthy of wikipedia articles because they haven't won awards or had number 1 hits or gold records. They all have (sometimes pretty stubby) articles in ro.wiki, though. Wouldn't it at least make sense to link to those, for curious readers? Is editing locked on this article for some reason, like floods of malicious edits from manele-haters?(talk) 02:36, 14 March 2012 (UTC)Fulicasenia

present participle?

Wow, what an astonishing amount of bitterness! Happily, I'm not going to say anything about manea, which I've never heard or even heard of till I chanced on this article. However, I do know what I'm talking about here below:

In § Etymology and usage, we find that

1. manea is a noun:

   … is a form of Turkish folk song … The word "manea" is the singular form

   The plural version, more commonly used, manele …

2. And we learn the corresponding adjective:

   The adjective form of the word is manelist

So far, so good. But then we hit

3. The Romanian present participle is manelizat that always has a pejorative connotation, giving a sense of "rough".

Let's stop right there. Nouns don't have participles. The very first words of the article linked to (redirected to Participle) are

A participle is a form of a verb …

And anyway, Romanian verbs have only one participle, the past.

Verbix VerbFinder says

Verb

manelizat

The submitted verb form could not be analyzed as a verb form.

So, you Romanian-speaking Wikipedians:

1. Can you fix that meaningless sentence? What kind of word, grammatically, is manelizat?
2. Failing that, can you supply enough information for a person who knows grammatical theory to fix it? What does manelizat mean? Can you use it in a sentence and translate the sentence into English?

Thnidu (talk) 01:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Faulty links

Several references linking to Jurnalul Național don't work, could someone fix that? In order, they are, in order: [1] http://jurnalul.ro/articole/30489/cui-ii-e-frica-de-manele [2] http://www.jurnalul.ro/articole/30482/mesterul-manele [5] http://www.jurnalul.ro/articole/30476/inner_article [6] http://www.jurnalul.ro/articole/30477/fariseism-si-manelism That's all the links from Jurnalul Național which I knew were faulty, but I haven't checked through all of the references. TonyPaws (talk) 19:01, 13 April 2016 (UTC)Tony

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Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2018

The last clause of the last sentence should be corrected for grammar so that it reads "..., each one being a mixture of local folk Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian influences over a pop tune. 67.170.91.126 (talk) 20:16, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

 Done, thanks! ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 20:44, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2021

Could someone add the Popular/pop music template here? 47.36.25.163 (talk) 23:55, 9 December 2021 (UTC) 47.36.25.163 (talk) 23:55, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

 Question: Which template do you refer to specifically? And by "here" do you mean the talk page or the article? I've marked the request as answered procedurally, but will still perform the request if my question is answered and I feel it's within reason. —Sirdog (talk) 00:37, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

I refer to Template:pop music, and I want it in the article. 47.36.25.163 (talk) 14:55, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done —Sirdog (talk) 03:33, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2022

This part of the sentence has to be removed "coupled with widespread racist feelings against Roma ethnics (Țigani/Gypsies),[5]" because the footnote 5 doesn't exist AND dislike of manale has nothing to do with alledged racism, as most people who hate manele actually love traditional gypsey music! This is misleading and an offence to a whole nation, not to mention utterly false ! Also further comparisions to the US racial culture and history are absolutely misplaced ! At the time when the UK was selling slaves across the World, Romania was in fact under Ottoman control ! We were the slaves and taxpayers to Turks ! It is beyond me that this American narative is being constantly pushed onto Romania and other countries that have a fundamentally different history, and thus very different problems, far more complex and layered than merely "black/white". Arraneo (talk) 16:36, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done It's from The Guardian, a mainstream UK newspaper. And you are lynching Negroes is an intellectual cop-out. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:43, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Trap music

Has trap music being integrated into manele? TudorTulok (talk) 12:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Edit request: mistranslation

I'm not sure how to go about this (I don't generally edit articles) so I hope this is the way to request an edit.

There is an article in the Public Opinion section that is quoted as "society's bed-wetter". However, even though the word "pisoarca" does in some cases mean bed-wetter, I think it is pretty clear that this is not one of those cases. As a word derivated from the word 'piss', "pisoarca" also refers to diluted low-quality alcohol, residue liquids, weak streams of a jet (hose, shower, etc) or weak rain (like a drizzle). In the quote, I think the implication is that the musical content is weak and disgusting. I don't think there are any English equivalents, but the sentiment is similar to words like 'sludge', 'slush', 'mush', 'sewer sludge'. Sternaparadisaea16 (talk) 16:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)