Talk:Manchester United F.C. 1–6 Manchester City F.C.

Educational Project Page

This page is part of an Educational Project by students of LIUC, Italy, with a course page at: https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/courses/LIUC_-_Universit%C3%A0_Cattaneo/Digital_Technology_(Autumn_2022) The users of the group are new to the Wikipedia platform and are learning to edit following Wikipedia rules. They are open to any advice on improvements of the page in conformity to Wikipedia requirements and guidelines, and any help useful for the enhancement of the page will be gladly accepted. The student User names are:

• LIUC6Veronika31
• LIUC7Filippo01
• LIUCPraderio06
• LIUC6Martyna08
• LIUC6Riccardo17
• LIUCElisa6

Limelightangel (talk) 18:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Potential page to link in from

There is the potential to link in to this page from several existing pages, including Manchester_derby, from the relevant text under 2010s Limelightangel (talk) 19:05, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

WikiProject Football Matches

The following are the guidelines on the general style and contents of an article on a football match:Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Matches. It will be useful for defining the page structure. For example, based on this I have renamed the section on 'reactions' to a section on 'Post-Match', as advised in this template. It should also help to avoid biased, subjective or other inappropriate content. Limelightangel (talk) 11:38, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Infobox

The is an Infobox template for football matches - see Template:Infobox_football_match. It is used on FC Barcelona 2–8 FC Bayern Munich. There may other options. Have a look at: Wikipedia:List_of_infoboxes. You can see how it has been used on other pages about people by inspecting the markup (Edit) on these pages. It is not necessary to complete all the fields in this template. There are predefined rules for the content you can add to each field in the template. See the Infobox help at: Help:Infobox Limelightangel (talk) 12:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Draft review, 21/11/22

• there is no Infobox, no independent content/references, and no article structure - see similar pages

Limelightangel (talk) 10:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Details part

There is a probable mistake in the layout of the starting line-ups of the teams. On the pitch image will be written only the players who started the match, not those who ended it. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 19:50, 22 November 2022 (UTC)LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 19:50, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that there is a problem with the image because it is actually from another match. Will create a new lineup image. LIUC6Veronika31 (talk) 16:31, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Repeating references

The link reference for the Premier league website is repeated in the reference list. The reference should be re-used instead of creating a new one each time, it's called "Match stats". LIUC6Veronika31 (talk) 16:36, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Statistics

Missing statistics in the table are not available yet because of their difficult research. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 14:20, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Draft review, 26/11/22

• references: refs. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 11, 12 and 13 are all incorrect; you do not reference Wikipedia pages (ref. 1); refs. 3 & 4 are duplicated - use refname in the cite template to link several numbered text citations to a single final references; 7 of the references have not used the required information in the Cite>Web template; some of the references are of limited quality; etc.

• irrelevant content: three substantial sections need to be removed from the page, as they are not explicitly about the match and there are existing Wikipedia pages specifically on these things. Specifically:

Background - most of this entire section relates to the page on the Manchester Derby, not this match

Premiere League 2011-12 section belongs on the Wiki page for this, not here, although some specific context is relevant to this topic here

Pre-match - the text on Old Tafford belongs on the Wiki page for this, and is not explicitly relevant to the pre-match section for this specific game

• needs a section for External links. Understand what goes here (e.g. MUFC website), in See also (other wiki pages NOT already used in the article) and in references. See the help resources e.g. Wikipedia:External_links, Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#"See_also"_section, etc.

• you will need to add Categories to your page - see similar pages, and use Help:Category.

• grammar/style: understand the correct style and grammar for Wikipedia, and avoid subjectivity. I have not edited the extensive issues in the Background section as the content needs to be deleted as irrelevant to this article. Examples include: 'the blue side of Manchester'; 'comparisons were never possible';'so they cheer the teams which played in Manchester'; 'the 70's'; 'was Denis Law game'; 'fosters red devils to'; 'In the 80's'; 'fought on the apex of'; 'the red Devils'; etc. You are writing for an encyclopaedia, not a sports blog. See and use Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles and Wikipedia:Simplified_Manual_of_Style.

• images: page needs relevant and acceptable images of the game.

• linking out: the link out under 2011-12 season to Manchester City and to the derby are both incorrectly formatted and also duplicate earlier use of the same links. You link out once, when the text is first used and then do not duplicate these links, as has been done in several places (e.g. to Manchester derby, Manchester City, Manchester United, 2011-12 season, etc.).

• kick-off time should be in local time

Limelightangel (talk) 18:33, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the referencing of the section "First half"

It seems like the referencing of this section might be incorrect, it should be done after each sentence, where appropriate, not near the title of the section. LIUC6Martyna08 (talk) 00:12, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

The reference regard the whole paragraph. It it is a mistake, it will be corrected as soon as possible. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 15:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC)LIUCPraderio06

The reference has been moved into another position. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 10:03, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

don't use Talk to simply report edits. These are clear in the Page History. Limelightangel (talk) 10:31, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Message for Student editors

Please advise your students to follow some of the basic rules outlined in the Manual of Style, especially those on bolding, duplicate links, and overlinked terms. They have also removed valid tags from statements without providing a source. I've been reverting quite a few of their edits over the past few hours and see that there's still hundreds that need to be checked for compliance. SounderBruce 10:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

   Many thanks. I will reinforce this with them, be having meetings with them to review their recent work and the many issues. They have repeatedly had this advice but clearly need it emphasizing. Thanks for the feedback. Limelightangel (talk) 14:47, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the advices! LIUCElisa6 (talk) 14:04, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Other projects

There is the possibility to connect this draft page with other projects done on Wikipedia platform, as for example Wiki Commons. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 14:07, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

this is a good idea which will help page quality, acceptance and credibility. It may also result in further help from other editors. Do it. Limelightangel (talk) 10:19, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Draft review, 03/12/22

• repeated feedback - grammar/style: understand the correct style and grammar for Wikipedia, and avoid subjectivity, vagueness and hyperbole. Examples to fix include: 'although' (twice; 'then' (twice); 'only grafts added';'guided the table';'specular lineups'; '4-4-2 module'; 'immediately'; 'right-shoot'; 'however'; 'even if'; 'again'; 'with the born of a counterattack'; 'unkicked'; 'Hosts ended';'streak of';'supremacy of'; 'soon after'; 'the City' (twice); 'the Manchester United came second'; 'it all began when'; etc. 'thanks to the win'; 'thanks to the captain's'; 'thanks to the result'; 'fighting for the title'; 'the strike of the fire'; etc. Referees do not 'concede a penalty'; Manchester United were not responsible for 'the creation of the Premiere League'; etc. You are writing for an encyclopaedia, not a sports blog. See and use Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles and Wikipedia:Simplified_Manual_of_Style.

• repeated feedback - linking out: You link out once, when the text is first used and then do not duplicate these links, or introduce them later (e.g. for Premiere League). A very large number of relevant links have been omitted, particularly related to the names of players, referee and City manager. There remains some over-linking e.g. left-back, Liverpool, AC Milan, Messi, Ronaldo, Real Madrid, etc. The text for the link out to City of Manchester Stadium is better as Ethiad Stadium, with the relevant markup to link to the City of Manchester Stadium page. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Linking.

• factual accuracy: the introduction includes incorrect content related to who was sent off, and when. The article says this was the 5th biggest win of the season, then later on the 4th.

• duplicate content e.g. related to the quote by Ferguson, and the 5-0 1955 result, both of which is repeated in two different places.

• repeated feedback - irrelevant content: content still needs to be removed from the page, as it is not explicitly about the match and there are existing Wikipedia pages specifically on these things. Specifically: the change from 1st division to Premiere League; the top goal scored in the league (in After-match); the long section on Why always me, most of which belongs on the Wiki page for Balotelli and is not relevant to this article; etc. See Wikipedia:Relevance_of_content

• structure: the Pre-match section includes duplicate and irrelevant content (e.g. the 1955 result - hardly 'pre-match). The 'first half' is not where you should include the first mention of the referee, nor the costs and ages of the teams. These are not explicitly relevant to the first half of the match. The section on Managers only includes one of the managers.

• there is no currency given for some of the financial values.

• the names of the linesmen are not explicitly mentioned.

• images need better captions for clarity and relevance, particularly as they are located in WikiMedia e.g. T-shirt caption, Ferguson caption, etc.

• images: there are no images from the match on the page. The Ashley Young image is from 2015, 4 years later.

• repeated feedback - issues with references: many have no authors, publisher or publication date, e.g.ref. 1, 3 (no author or date); ref 4. (no author, date); ref 26 (no use of Cite>web template); ref. 28 (no author, date or publisher); ref. 32 (no author, date, publisher); etc. See Wikipedia:Citing_sources and particularly Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Web_pages.

Limelightangel (talk) 18:14, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Grammar style needs still to be corrected without using the football correct. Other elements such as the accuracy, the repeated feedbacks and duplicate links have been corrected. Irrelevant content has been modified and also the structure. Linesmen's names is explained and currency for financial value has been added in euro. Images will be fixed on today's lecture with the help of the whole group. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 09:41, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

See Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Currencies_and_monetary_values : "In country-specific articles...use the currency of the subject country". Do not use this public Talk page for content like 'today's lecture'- it is for page discussion. Limelightangel (talk) 10:24, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

External feedback

• "9th match-week" isn't common usage in the English. This is particularly relevant because (due to international fixtures, European fixtures, cup and so on) it isn't uncommon for fixtures to be misaligned. A more natural phrase would be "took place at Old Trafford, Manchester, on 23 October 2011. The fixture was both teams 9th game of the season".
• It is probably a good thing to note the relative positions of the two teams at the time of the fixture. I.e. "1st place Man City took on 2nd place Man Utd at Old Trafford" which is a more natural way to reference the game.
• This sentence is good, but by mentioning "Premier League" you are restricting this to just matches since 1993. In reality this was the first time in their history (per the source): "This was the first time in a Manchester derby where the teams played when placed as the first and second teams in the Premier League table" should be something like "This was the first time in the clubs history that 1st and 2nd place faced off in the Manchester derby".
• It is common in English to refer to the winners first when referring to results. For example "The game resulted in a 1–6 win for City" would normally be discussed as "the game resulted in a 6-1 win for Manchester City". The only time this isn't observed is when data is presented in a table of results (home vs away).
• There is a lot of redundancy in this sentence "This match became United's most significant defeat in 81 years[1], their worst defeat in the Premier League by conceding 6 goals and their worst defeat at Old Trafford since the Manchester derby of 1955, when City won 0-5 on 12 February 1955.[2]" A better way to present this information might be "The result was Uniteds heaviest defeat in the Premier league, and their biggest loss at Old Trafford in the derby since City won 5-0 in 1955". Alternatively, this could be presented as a positive for City - i.e. "this was City's largest ever derby win".
• This sentence is a bit messy as it currently suggests Balotelli scored 5, and Silva scored two. "Then Manchester City scored 5 more goals by Balotelli, who scored his double, Sergio Agüero, Edin Džeko and another double by the Spanish midfielder David Silva." A better format might be "City scored another 5 goals, with Balotelli adding a second, Aguero, a double from Edin Dzeko, and one from David Silva"
• Using the above sentence as an example: It is worth thinking about when you do or don't mention a players nationality. i.e. why exclude Balotelli, Aguero and Dzeko but include David Silva's?

I am happy to give as much feedback as desired, but I also don't want any of my comments to be viewed negatively. The article is a fine start so far. Koncorde (talk) 18:22, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback, just edited what you suggested. A native speaker giving suggestions will always be welcomed LIUC6Riccardo17 (talk) 20:32, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

All constructive feedbacks are welcome. What do you mean in the point of nationality? Have we to explain the nationality of all players? LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 08:02, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

In the sentence you only mentioned one nationality: David Silva. Now in the case of an all English team where one person stands out as a foreign national adding "Spanish player David Silva" might be useful information. But when every player in the list is a foreign national the question is why are you mentioning only one of them? If you mention all of them it is obviously very wordy and complex. If you mention only one of them it suggests there is something significant about him being Spanish. I would exclude mentioning the nationality unless it is particularly important, or if you are doing a longer summary of the players involved in the game (which is probably too much detail for this article). Koncorde (talk) 10:32, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I understand your point of view. Thank you for the advice! LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 15:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for the advices, we always want to improve our page LIUCElisa6 (talk) 11:23, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Fixing references

I couldn't find a proof of the following sentence being factually correct in the indicated reference (ref. 6): "The outcomes at Old Trafford are 32 wins for United, 25 draws and 16 wins for City". The reference needs to be updated. LIUC6Martyna08 (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. You could have re-used the reference to the MU Official History book for this, but it has been deleted! Limelightangel (talk) 10:29, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Article name

The name of this article should be Manchester United F.C. 1–6 Manchester City F.C., as you can see here this follows the common naming conventions. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:23, 5 December 2022 (UTC) Thank you for the advice, we will fix as possible the name of the article. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 20:56, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

About linking to this article

Afternoon, I can see one of the editors here has made a few edits to live articles, and requested changes to a few more, to add a link to this draft article. The correct process is for this article to be progressed out of Draft to be reviewed before we do such linking within wikipedia. I have reverted the changes until such time this article is completed and published. Koncorde (talk) 17:46, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! We will create the links after we publish the page. LIUC6Veronika31 (talk) 12:47, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Irrelevant content

Most of the content of the part "Balotelli Why always me?" is still irrelevant on the content of the game. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 15:25, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't think so. Even though it may seem not directly connected to the game, it's part of the match. It is important to dedicate a whole paragraph to explain the reasons that conducted Balotelli to that action. If there was a Wiki Page on that topic we could refer to that, but because it doesn't exist it is important that we describe briefly but precisely what happened and the reasons that conducted to that moment and that reaction. Moreover, it is one of the most iconic celebrations ever, worth then of being covered. LIUC6Riccardo17 (talk) 14:09, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I think the earlier issue here has been resolved well and the current content is relevantLimelightangel (talk) 16:02, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. The issue has been resolved. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 16:02, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Draft page

This page is no more a draft, it has been published. LIUCElisa6 (talk) 11:40, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Graphic part

Is it possible to write the title written in bold "2011-12 Premier League" in the statistics section alligned with the rest of the part? LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I've been trying to but I can't figure out how to do it. It would be nice to also centre the uniforms with the names below and to put the man of the match and match rules in a more aesthetic way, such as lining them up with the part written above LIUC6Riccardo17 (talk) 16:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

It would be much pretty but I think that is Wikipedia fixed layout LIUCElisa6 (talk) 10:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Couple of comments

• The "Event" criteria is intended to capture a specific competition, rather than a run of the mill competitive game (Such as a World Cup) it's a bit redundant in an article such as this.
• It is worth reviewing the template itself here
• As mentioned previously, in the UK we generally we do not refer to Weeks or Rounds.
• For ideas about how to improve the article it may be worth you looking at articles that have already been evaluated as Good such as the 2005 UEFA Champions League Final, or a Featured Article such as 2018 FA Cup Final. Koncorde (talk) 16:50, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, we will look for adjustments on the page. LIUCPraderio06 (talk) 10:51, 13 December 2022 (UTC)