Talk:Mahidevran

Title

The page Mahidevran Sultan should be moved to Mahidevran Gülbahar Hatun because Mahidevran was never a concubine or a Haseki Sultan and Hürrem Sultan was the first Haseki Sultan.--Retrieverlove 1:09, 22 June 2014

Not all Sultan's consort who held title "Sultan" after their given name were Haseki Sultan. Example: Mahfiruz Hatice. She's not Haseki nor Valide. Hafidh Wahyu P (talk) 15:12, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

According to Leslie P. Peirce, prior to the creation of the title Haseki Sultan for Hürrem Sultan, all the Ottoman consorts carried an alternative royal title, "Hatun".But Leslie P. Peirce also said that during 16th century(Suleiman's reign) the title Hatun for a valide,princesses and Sultan's consorts were changed by Sultan(it's called Sultana in the harem to distinguish between male and female). [8] However it is clear,that Mahidevran Sultan also carried the title Sultan as she was the first main chief consort (Baş Kadın). Moreover, she is referred to as "Mahidevran Sultan" in popular history books, TV series and touristic literature. [9][10]

Though Mahidevran Sultan may not have been a Haseki, she was the mother of Şehzade Mustafa, the eldest surviving son of the reigning Sultan and the crown prince of the imperial throne. Hence it can be asserted that she held an very influential position in Suleiman's harem: according to Ottoman traditions, she was Suleiman's Chi Baş Kadın. She was in the second rank after Hafsa Sultan(Valide Sultan) in the harem according to the Ottoman tradition.[3][11][12] While Hürrem became Suleiman's new favorite and later his legal wife, Mahidevran Sultan retained the status of the crowned mother of Suleiman's eldest son,[13] and became Suleiman's "first wife". Khondoker Jobair (talk) 06:10, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

I think you are mistaken my friend,,Mahidevran Sultan was the first chief consort and the proud mother Sehzade mustafa,the most potential heir apparent of the throne for succesion of his father.And you are saying that she was not even a concubine??? That's very funny!!! Pathetic joke!! Khondoker Jobair (talk) 06:13, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Mahidevran Hatun

Why is she called Mahidevran Sultan in this article? Before Hürrem Sultan, every consort was called hatun. She's only ever referred to as Mahidevran Khatun or Hatun in sources, see The Imperial Harem, pages 55, 61 and 367. Letempsviendra (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe. Hurrem was the Haseki Sultan which makes her the principal wife and consort of Suleiman but Mahidevran's situation was also different form other consorts like Gulfem as she was the mother of heir apparent to the throne and the future Vailde Sultan. Keivan.f^Talk 09:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Besides, I just reverted your move so the other users can also discuss the matter. Then we can decide to use which title. Keivan.f^Talk 09:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

(You reverted to a name that was not the original name of the article and you could have waited the end of this discussion to do so). She is called "Mahidevran Khatun" by Leslie Pierce, a scholarly source centered on the subject. Which reliable source explicitly calls her "Mahidevran Sultan"?--Phso2 (talk) 10:40, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Phso2 I moved the page back to its previous title. Now do you have any other sources that call her "Mahidevran Hatun" except the book written by Pierce? Keivan.f^Talk 12:11, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually the original title of this article was Mahidevran. (see History) I chose this title, simply because her name was Mahidevran (and not sultan or hatun). Both sultan and hatun are noble titles rather than her name. Since we don't need to disambiguate the name Mahidevran, the royal title is redundant. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:48, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I think so too. The royal title is redundant, we should return to the original title "Mahidevran". Anyway, she is also given the title "hatun" and not "sultan" in Padişahların Kadınları ve Kızları by Çağatay Uluçay ([1]).--Phso2 (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. So many other royals carry noble titles before or after their names and these titles are included in their articles' names. Prince, Duke, Sultan, Khan, etc. So if her royal title was "Hatun" then let it be as it is. Keivan.f^Talk 08:13, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

@Nedim Ardoğa Anyway I have a question that you may have its answer. Can we include the title "Sultan" after the name of a Haseki Sultan? Ayşe Hatun (wife of Murad IV) was a Haseki. So I think we should change "Hatun" to "Sultan". Keivan.f^Talk 08:25, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no established usage of royal titles in WP: See three different examples. Elizabeth I of England, Queen Victoria and Elizabeth II, all referring to the queens of the same country. But you can see that both Elizabeth I and Victoria needs disambiguation whereas Elizabeth II is immensely more notable than the two other Elizabeth IIs (a princess and a ship) . Consequently, no royal titles are used in the article heading. Since there is no other notable Mahidevrans I prefer Mahidevran as the title of this article. `Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:11, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

@Nedim Ardoğa All of the examples you gave here are articles about monarchs. The protocol about the consorts is that their articles' titles should include their royal titles, Queen Máxima of the Netherlands, Empress Kōjun, Queen Sofía of Spain, Razia Sultana, Mandukhai Khatun, Empress Dowager Cixi, etc. Of course if there was another thing named Mahidevran, a ship for example, its article would be titled Mahidevran (ship) or Mahidevran Hatun (ship) and in my opinion it's not a good reason for changing this article's title as it has nothing to do with this page. Keivan.f^Talk 12:27, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

@Nedim Ardoğa @Keivan @Phso2 Please see some references which proves her title to be Sultan. You may also look for Turkish sources like Turkish Philology; Türk dili: dil ve edebiyat dergisi, Issue 454. I want to make one point clear, Peirce simply didn't mentioned her title in her book, instead she added Hatun to her name which was used for every single lady at that time, even maids, and even today, Hatun (or Khatun) literally translates as "Madam" or "Lady". She did that out of respect. But Peirce's not using her title simply doesn't mean that she didn't have that title. For example, Chairman Mao's page in Wikipedia is Mao Zedong and Queen Elizabeth's page is Elizabeth II but it doesn't mean that Queen Elizabeth isn't queen. Mahidevran would have been called Hatun prior to Mustafa's becoming Heir Apparent, but as tradition goes, in entire Ottoman History, the mother of heir apparent was referred as Sultan. But even if that's not the case, the sources I have provide does claim her to be a wife, so it's apparent and obvious her title was Sultan. Worldandhistory (talk) 00:51, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Her name was Mahidevran. You can add many royal titles and epithets to it. In ancient and medieval times, the royal people used too many epithets. In some cases the number of epithets are so much that they make reading difficult. So it is best not to use royal epithets in the article titles. However one can add a section dedicated solely to the epithets, titles and alternative names (see an example in Tardu) . Thus I oppose both hatun and sultan. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

@Nedim Ardoğa I agree, the page should only read as Mahidevran. Though you must keep in mind Hatun is not a title. And I would like to present some other sources which referred her title as Sultana. So I would strongly recommend to have it mentioned in her article. We should present all that every source has to offer and simply just doesn't present the history as we please. The sources provided, even if they are "snippet views" contradicts the motion that "Historically, Mahidevran couldn't be called Mahidevran Sultan".Worldandhistory (talk) 19:13, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

References

Phso 2 You are saying that Leslie P. Pierce told n his book that for the creation of the title Haseki Sultan for Hurrem all the other consorts carried an alternative title Hatun.But my freind you should also know that,Leslie P. Peirce also said that during 16th century(Suleiman's reign) the title Hatun for a valide,princesses and Sultan's consorts were changed by Sultan(it's called Sultana in the harem to distinguish between male and female). And Mahidevran was the proud mother of Sehzade Mustafa,who was the most potential and talented heir apparent to the throne.And Mahidevran was not like the other Consorts of Suleiman,like Gulfem or Fulane.After the death of the sons of other consorts by diseases She was the mother of only son of Suleiman the magnificent and according to the ottoman tradition sje was Suleiman's Bas kadin,which was the most powerful position for a Sultan's consort before creation and after abolition of the title Haseki Sultan.As Leslie P. Pierce said that during Suleiman's reign the title for Queen mother, Princesses and Sultan's chief consort changed to Sultan from Hatun.And other ordinary consorts of Sultan held the title Hatun.And Mahidevran Sultan was favorite and chief consort of Suleiman before hurrem,and she was the mother of crown prince of the ottoman empire. Dear Phso 2,I think i have made the issue clear which is about the royal woman "Mahidevran" and you shuould not have any doubt or confusion or Question regarding this subject. Thank you From Khondoker Jobair. Khondoker Jobair (talk) 06:37, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Peirce calls her Mahidevran Hatun ; the document related to her vakıf cited by Uluçay (note 19) calls her "Mahi-devran Hatun Valide-i Sultan Mustafa-i Cedid". But since you have immanent knowledge that she was called Mahidevran Sultan, so in order to justify your own prejudice you build a theory about a supposed change of titulature for her, based on a distorded interpretation of Peirce's words.

Anyway, whatever, you (among others) are sure she was a "sultan", you want her to be called "sultan", you know from your heart that she was a "sultan", you perhaps feel "hatun" is not prestigious enough, so what shall I do? I won't discuss this further ad nauseam, since you won't change your opinion just because of negligible petty boring superfluous details such as reliable sources or scholarly history.

By the way, in the same fashion you added again that Raziye Sultan was her daughter, although it has already been reverted unnumerables times because there is simply no source for this outside TV serials and personal websites. But TV serials and personal websites know better, so be it, who cares?--Phso2 (talk) 20:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Title reloaded

(moved from user TP)
I am giving you answer about Mahidevran Sultan's rank.According to reliable sources it is confirmed that Mahidevran Sultan was Suleiman's Bas kadin(chief consort or chief lady).This was for those women who bore the eldest male child of reigning Sultan.As Mahidevran Sultan was the mother of Sehzade Mustafa,eldest son of Suleiman the magnificent,it is very logical that she held the rank Bas kadin or Birinci Kadin,it's from me which is logical. Jobair khondoker (talk) 17:41, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not the one who removed (rightfully) your original research, Retrieverlove (talk · contribs) did, so please hassle him/her, not me. Though, hes/she did well, because a reliable source (Peirce) asserts that this title came in official use only at the end of the 17th century. But it is probably of no interest to you since you already made your own opinion on the irrefutable basis that "it's from you which is logical". Adiós.--Phso2 (talk) 21:33, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Title and status

"But Leslie P. Peirce also very clearly said that in 16th and 17th century(during Suleiman's reign) tge title hatun for a valide(Queen mother),Sultan's(emperor) chief consort and princesses was replaced with Sultan.As Mahidevran was the first chief consort and Baş Kadın (chief consort) according to ottoman tradition so it's very easy to find out that she held the title Sultan from the very beginning." Who thought it was acceptable to post this? Not only is the phrasing leaving much to be desired, the conclusion is also a subjective speculation presented as a fact. -Le temps viendra (talk) 22:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Clear this matter Le temps Viendra Khondoker Jobair (talk) 05:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2021

223.230.95.250 (talk) 08:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Mentioned her survival possible after Hurrem a death is not sound real

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 10:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)