Talk:Mafia film

While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard.

Crime and Criminal Biography: Organized crime Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Organized crime task force (assessed as High-importance).

Film

	Film portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Film. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the guidelines.FilmWikipedia:WikiProject FilmTemplate:WikiProject Filmfilm articles
	This article needs an image (preferably free) related to the subject, such as a picture of the set or a film poster. Please ensure that non-free content guidelines are properly observed.
	This article needs an appropriate infobox template.

WorldCat Genres

Hello, I'm working with OCLC, and we are algorithmically generating data about different Genres, like notable Authors, Book, Movies, Subjects, Characters and Places. We have determined that this Wikipedia page has a close affintity to our detected Genere of gangster-films. It might be useful to look at [1] for more information. Thanks. Maximilianklein (talk) 23:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move

It has been suggested that this article be moved to Gangster film (America), which would include the current content as section Mafia / Mob films, as well as Mafia comedy and the redirect Gangster film to become a more general article about any country ganster films. See discussion here. Hoverfish Talk 19:19, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would oppose the move to Gangster film (America)…surely Mafia film is much more appropriate, and create Gangster film as a separate overarching article as discussed on the project page. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 19:42, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mafia film has also been proposed. The problem is that there are Mafia films from many countries and the article should then include more than just the American films. As it now is, it covers only the later. Hoverfish Talk 19:59, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I think American Mafia film would be more appropriate. The naming of the title would then be consistent with the article at American Mafia. Betty Logan (talk) 20:15, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was just going to say what Betty Logan said: American Mafia film. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:23, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

American Mafia film is fine with me too, as it describes the current content best. Hoverfish Talk 20:28, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hoverfish, Vaselineeeeeeee, and Betty Logan: Is Mafia film (America) a better title? Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 03:51, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@InformationvsInjustice: I don't think so, for the reasons to coincide with the American Mafia article, it makes sense to name it American Mafia film. Also, if you'd go the bracket route United States would have to be to avoid confusion with the Americas. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:11, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I hope everyone is aware that one way or another, some of the contents will have to be split to the Gangster article and worked so as to make sense there. The lead and some of the early history wouldn't belong here. To name it Mafia film (America) would be to disambiguate it from a series of Mafia film (country), but how much scope for such a series do we have? I think American Mafia film is more straightforward without needless dab. Hoverfish Talk 09:24, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and the United States issue too. Hoverfish Talk 11:20, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SUPPORT Gangster film (United States) @Hoverfish: I think there could be a separate Mafia film (United States), but I think this article should be Gangster film (United States), to capture Goodfellas as well as The Departed and Once Upon a Time in America neither of which are about the Mafia but both of which belong here. Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 21:11, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I will try to sum up. Betty Logan, Vaselineeeeeeee, Hoverfish, would rather have this article moved to American Mafia film, and InformationvsInjustice would rather have it Gangster film (United States). Hoverfish Talk 23:11, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Goodfellas, The Departed, Once Upon a Time in America and some of the pre-Mafia history present now in the article will have to be split to the general "Ganster film" article that will be placed where the redirect is now. This new article will include Ganster film in general and United States gangster films, pointing to "main article" American Mafia film when it comes to this topic. Hoverfish Talk 23:16, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hoverfish: So, just to be clear, the American Mafia film article will be limited to films about the Italian mafia and will not include the three films I cited above... ? Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 00:40, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's right. As I said above, the three films and some of the early history will have to go to the new general article. When you propose a country-disambiguated name for a genre, I have to think of the scope of a series of articles of such a genre. For the Gangster film (United States), what else would we have? Gangster film (United Kingdom), Gangster film (France), etc? I think it's too early to think of such a series. A general article that goes to at least class B before branching out is a better way. Let's make a Gangster film article that describes the genre, show what variations exist in various countries in it, give some notable examples of each, like the three films in question and if the article reaches a big length (we are not talking about a list-article, right?), we can then talk about a more country-specific article. Agree? Hoverfish Talk 00:54, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would include Goodfellas within the American Mafia film article since the figures are associated with crime families such as the Lucchese crime family. Departed, etc. can be part of the more general Gangster film. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 03:24, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Vaselineeeeeeee: Hmm, I see Once Upon a Time in America in category Mafia films. Is this correct? The plot says something about a "local boss Bugsy", not sure if it connects to Bugsy, which is also on the same category... Hoverfish Talk 04:04, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Once Upon a Time in America does deal with the Mafia to an extent, so I think it's okay. And yeah, the (United States) disam. would only be needed for a country series of Gangster films, which I don't think there will be enough of for the other countries...which is why American Mafia film is the best to me. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT: Guys, I don't necessarily see the need for the proposed general article Gangster film, as Crime film already exists which can present these types of films. I'm just trying to think how we can generate info for this proposed Gangster film article, and don't think it would have enough info for a standalone article...it can just be expanded as part of Crime film

Also, although most of this article is on the American Mafia, there is some sections about strictly Italian Mafia from Italy (ie. look at last paragraph in the 2000s section). This is where things can get a little hairy. Having an article like Gangster film (Italy) would be much too short for its own article since there are only a select few articles on the English wiki. By changing the title to American Mafia article, you lose the potential to include other films such as these from outside the U.S. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:41, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It is becoming apparent that the article is just a mish-mash without any coherent topic scope. It covers American non-mafia gangster films, American mafia films, and foreign mafia films. I think the "American mafia" title might be too restrictive. The logical approach to me is to have a Gangster film article (which covers the whole genre) and a Mafia film article (which would also include Italian mafia films too). I think both topics are theoretically large enough to sustain dedicated articles, but honestly, at the moment I don't think there is enough materical in the article to warrant a split. The simplest approach probably would be to just move this article to Gangster film and see how it evolves. At least then we would probably get editors adding some Triad and Yakuza content which would then make a split viable down the line. Betty Logan (talk) 06:28, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we all agree that as it is now, the article is incoherent. Surely Crime film is the overarching topic, but Ganster film should exist as separate main topic. The initial main point of InformationvsInjustice was: The article is limited to American films and should expand to include more countries or more articles to place everything. Betty Logan proposed the general Ganster film title. When the discussion was moved here, Mafia film and American Mafia film were suggested. I have supported this because of the big amount of films and information we have about this. It would be best to forget about a country specific title until we have a strong general article which places all the sub topics in a clear order. Hoverfish Talk 11:59, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We should have a consensus for moving the article to Gangster film, as an administrator will have to be called to move it over the existing redirect. Hoverfish Talk 12:09, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I'd agree with moving it to Gangster film to be less restrictive at the moment. But I wouldn't encourage people to add Yakuza related material as they already have an article. Also, I can move the page as I have page mover rights. Let's wait a bit though. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 12:37, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Vaselineeeeeeee: Thanks for contributing! There should be an "other countries" section or just sections for Japan, Hong Kong, and the UK. Those three countries have robust long traditions that deserve mention. There could be a "french gangster film" section in French Wikipedia, I just don't think its notable in the anglophone world. Each section should have a See Main Article hatnote as appropriate. Also, Once Upon a Time in America is about the Jewish Mafia, although it features the Italian Mafia, It shouldn't be considered a "Mafia" film. :-) Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 21:29, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the term "Mafia" is that, although originating for Italians, has become more general for Chinese, Russians and Jews. So I would still consider it a Mafia film. The other thing is, is that the two most prominent organized crime organizations are probably the Italian/Italian-American Mafia and Yakuza. I think that if Yakuza can have its own article, so can the Italian Mafia...but then we get into a bit of a sticky situation to distinguish between the Italian Mafia from Italy and the Italian Mafia in the United States. This is why I think it is the right call to ultimately stay away from "American Mafia film". On the other hand, if we move this article to "Gangster film", it may become too general and shift focus from the Italian/American Mafia films...but then again "Mob film" can really mean anything in terms of Russian Mob, etc. so this really isn't a clear-cut decision by any means. I know there's been some flip-flop, but we may be stiring up a non-issue here. Say we leave this article as "Mob film", as well as leave the "Gangster film" redirect here, this will give us the opportunity to create "Gangster film (X country)" in the future. We can also leave a redirect notice at the top of the article in the event a country specific Gangster film article is created. I don't really see the need to have a "general article" as "Crime film" is still the more general topic, then it will break off into country specific articles, "Yakuza film" (Japanese), "Mob film" (Italian/Italian-American), "Gangster film (X country)". This way, we will minimize the amount of work in the space, and only create country specific articles that are notable enough for mention like Russian, Jewish etc. If you need clarification on any of what I said, please let me know. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:46, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

1. I do not think that the Italian Mafia from Italy and the Italian Mafia in the United States should be treated separately, as the one is the continuation of the other and they have too strong historic ties to be separate topics. 2. I disagree using the term Mafia loosely to include anything people mean by "Mafia". Maybe a note should make clear this popularization, but I think we should stick to the original sense of the word. 3. Mob film is a very hazy term. I copy here what I had said in the WPFilm: "Mob" is an informal term for criminal organization, especially the Mafia operating in the United States (the Free Dictionary)[2]. So the article will have to stay hazy as well: It could mean any criminal organization, but it could mean "especially Mafia". It will however take in Irish Mob nicely, which is a plus for the term Mob. Hoverfish Talk 15:39, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gangster is also a hazy term. It could even include African American gangs, which shouldn't be included with Italian or Irish mob etc. I agree with you that Italian Mafia from Italy and Italian Mafia in the United States shouldn't be in separate articles, but titling it "American Mafia" or "Italian Mafia" would be too restrictive to have both, which is why "Mob film" was probably first used as the title for this article. The problem with an approach like "Gangster film (Russia)" is people may often think of the films are made specifically in Russia, even though it may include films about the Russian Mob outside of the country itself. If we go with something like "Russian Mob film", "Italian Mob film, "Irish Mob film", this may be better because it doesn't suggest the film is from that country only, but rather, the topic as a whole, whether it be about the Italian Mob (or Italian Mafia, and section the article off into the countries the film was made about the topic) in Italy, Canada, United States, Australia, etc. Then Mob film alone could be left as the general article? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:25, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The whole point of "Gangster film" was to have an article that includes all gangs. Forget about splitting to country specific topics and think of the net use of such a general article. But if you think this article should stay "Mob film", fine, I can see some use in it, but then another article should be "Gangster film". Crime film is too general for this. Just look at the article: Crime film. Apart from giving a very lacking and probably wrong lead, it gives 4 totally unsourced paragraphs and then makes a list of sub-genres, which IMO is the only useful part, and from that list "Gangster film" is missing! Let's think wider than one article then. We leave this Mob, and... Hoverfish Talk 01:53, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They're missing "Gangster film" because its redirect is at Mob film. There may be much overlap between a "Mob film" article and a "Gangster film" article...Unless we start including a whole whack of gangs from bikers to African-American to whatever it may be. Is that the direction you see it going into, and would you be volunteering to create such an article? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:20, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't know where to start. If the problem is who will do it rather than structure of articles, we are talking past each other. Hoverfish Talk 11:57, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that your focus is on Mafia articles, and I don't expect you to undertake other areas. But gangster film simply redirecting to Mob doesn't seem proper. I will remind you that Informata ob Iniquitatum started this, and I tried to find a proper article or structure for what he was talking about. I would surely help if something was started by someone who knows more than me. Hoverfish Talk 12:06, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I feel the same way, I wouldn't know where to begin on an article like that. I would, however, help out as well if it was started. I just wanted to see if someone was going to actually be making this article, instead of just talking, and then no action - that would be pointless. You're probably right that the Gangster film redirect shouldn't belong here, as if created, could mention Mob film. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 14:28, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mobster film currently has no redirect. Either should be redirect here, or maybe a new title for this? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:45, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A Google search for "Mob film" gives me 69.100 and for "Mobster film" 10.800. I think that it should be a redirect here. Hoverfish Talk 22:33, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How about Mafia film? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 23:05, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it should be much higher, but then we go back to issues already discussed, and don't forget that searching for Mafia, will contain also Russian Mafia (IMDb uses the term abuntantly, for one) and anything non-Mafia popularized as Mafia. Hoverfish Talk 20:39, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Vaselineeeeeeee and Betty Logan: Just wanted to post here (I think I spaced it) that there is a draft of Gangster film, here, if you'd like to contribute. Thanks Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 02:14, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

New gangster film article is ready

Hi all,

This is a new, expanded article for the namespace Gangster film. This narrower article, should be moved to Mafia film. Both get hatnotes. This page's current redirects should be pointed at the new article. Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 02:20, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that should work. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 03:10, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I agree, this resolves most of the issues. Betty Logan (talk) 04:35, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions for Mafia Films

Hello fellow mafia movie fans, whilst reading the article as well as tuning into your conversation I could not help but suggest to include the 1993 movie A Bronx Tale in the article as it is a well-liked movie and has popular Mafia movie actors such as Chazz Palminteri, and even Robert De Niro as well.

Mmondt95 (talk) 21:22, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's already there. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 21:47, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]