Talk:Maen Achwyfan

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Maen Achwyfan article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Celts

	Maen Achwyfan is within the scope of WikiProject Celts, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the ancient Celts and the modern day Celtic nations. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks or take part in the discussion. Please Join, Create, and Assess.CeltsWikipedia:WikiProject CeltsTemplate:WikiProject CeltsCelts articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Middle Ages Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Wales Low‑importance

	Wales portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WalesWikipedia:WikiProject WalesTemplate:WikiProject WalesWales articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Maen Achwyfan or Maen Achwyfan Cross

While it does not have a long history in the written record, "Maen Achwyfan Cross" is the name favoured by Cadw and some websites. This is part of a long established nomenclature within archeology; to refer to artifacts and notable sites by a more easily identifiable name regardless of the preexisting common name (eg. the Druidstone Standing Stone or Caerleon Legionary Fortress are not commonly referred to by these names).

In researching the name of the Maen Achwyfan it is noticeable that for much of its history, the debate over its name was between "Maen Achwyfan" and "Maen Chwyfan" indeed it seems that the cross usually appears under one of these names in writing from 1388 until today. It seems to be that the real identifier in the name is "Maen" ("Stone") and the addition of Cross or Croes is unnecessary and even misleading given the debate to the Christian or pagan origins of the artwork.

Rev. Owen's writing on the subject of the name references the 1388 name, Gibson's edition of Britannia, Pennant's work and even goes as far as demanding that member of the local population repeat the name to him in person, so that he may hear any difference. In discussing all the varieties of names, Owen never once refers to the Cross as "Maen Achwyfan Cross", though he uses the term Cross to describe it many times. In discussing the age of the Cross, Owen staes that the artifact retains "the Celtic appellation Maen" which distinguishes it from "those stone crosses which are distinguished by the use of the adopted word Croes".

I think under Wikipedia's "common name" policies it would make more sense to rename this article "Maen Achwyfan", however if I am missing something, or there are any users who would wish to discuss this further please let me know.

Cymrogogoch (talk) 12:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not one I feel too strongly about. When I started the article, I will have taken the name from Cadw. I see that both they, and the RCAHMW, call it Maen Achwyfan Cross. I tend to favour the modern approach, rather than those of 19th century antiquarian histories. The other point to think about is what would a reader type when looking for it? I suspect they might well include "cross", e.g. the three outstanding high crosses of Wales etc. KJP1 (talk) 13:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response. The article still features the word cross multiple times so I can't see it impacting results on search engines or Wikipedia's internal search function (especially if we have a redirect), but I do agree with all your other points.

I am unsure if "Maen Achwyfan Cross" is the common modern name in English, a google search of "Maen Achwyfan Cross" brings up mixed results for "Maen Achwyfan", "Maen Achwyfan Cross" and "Maen Achwyfan Wheel Cross" (with the latter two names featuring exclusively on archeological sites and the Wikipedia article itself. However, searching "Maen Achwyfan" also brings up mixed results, but this time the archeological sites use a mix of both names.

Lastly, in expanding the history and etymology sections (my fault!) the article now uses the name Maen Achwyfan in direct reference to the sources of Pennant and Owen. As such I would favour a change but am happy to defer to you or any consensus.

Again, thanks for your response. Cymrogogoch (talk) 11:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does "Maen Achwyfan" refer primarily to the wheel-cross itself or to the site where it is located? If the former, "Maen Achwyfan Cross" is tautological in the same way that "Stonehenge Standing Stones" would be. A Google Books search for "Maen Achwyfan" suggests that it's not only antiquarian sources that call the stone "Maen Achwyfan" tout court: there are reputable-looking ones doing so that were published in 2003 (D. Hull, Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Art: Geometric Aspects, from Liverpool University Press), 2022 (L. Brady & P. Wadden, Origin Legends in Early Medieval Western Europe) and 2023 (N. Edwards, Life in Early Medieval Wales). Ham II (talk) 21:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply.

"Does "Maen Achwyfan" refer primarily to the wheel-cross itself or to the site where it is located?"

Both, the phrase "Maen Achwyfan Cross" seems to be more of an archaeological term for the cross itself and the links within this article referring to it as such are exclusively archaeological descriptions. As KJP1 pointed out, most of the sources I have added are historic in nature, but it does seem to have a history of being called "Maen Achwyfan" as an individual artifact, but I am unsure if that is the common name used today. "Maen Achwyfan Cross" is a tautology though.

"A Google Books search for "Maen Achwyfan" suggests that it's not only antiquarian sources that call the stone "Maen Achwyfan"

That's essentially what I am trying to ascertain from this discussion. My background in this area is historic and I honestly lack an understanding of what the common English name in contemporary use might be. Cymrogogoch (talk) 12:21, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have moved article as no one seems to object. WP:CONCISE, WP:PRECISE Cymrogogoch (talk) 12:04, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]