Talk:Madonna–whore complex

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Madonna–whore complex article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Psychology Mid‑importance

	Psychology portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Psychology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PsychologyWikipedia:WikiProject PsychologyTemplate:WikiProject Psychologypsychology articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Gender studies Mid‑importance

This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies articles

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

To-do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles
Cleanup : edit to see
Collaborate : see /Collaboration
Copyedit : edit to see
Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender
Expand : edit to see
Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes
Merge : edit to see
Notability : edit to see
NPOV : edit to see
Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia
Photo : see Wikipedia requested photographs of gender studies
Split : History of feminism
Stubs : see Gender studies stubs
Translate : see /translation
Update : edit to see
Verify : Riot grrrl
Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Welldon, Estela V. (1988). Mother, Madonna, Whore: The Idealization and Denigration of Motherhood (1st ed.). Abingdon, England: Routledge. doi:10.4324/9780429477348. ISBN 1-8557-5341-3.

Redirects

Was Freud's idea originally called (in English) "madonna prostitute"? And don't many people call it "virgin whore"? And syndrome sometimes, instead of complex. Just mentioning it in case anyone wants to put the redirects in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.107.130 (talk) 17:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merged articles

I created the other article on the same topic at about the same time and don't see the merge as controversial so I'm going go ahead and do it right away. — mako 17:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Film Reference

Jean Eustache's 1973 film "La Maman et la putain", an artist's view on the subject under discussion. [[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alex p14 (talk • contribs) 16:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Psychology wrong?

I thought that the idea was that a sufferer wanted a wife just like his mother, but also wanted to avoid sex with his wife/mother surrogate. It does not relate to a distant mother at all - in fact the closer the man was/is to his mother, the more he might want his wife to be like her.

I do question the statement that the "sufferer is raised by a cold and distant mother. Such a man will often court women with qualities of his mother, hoping to fulfill a need for intimacy unmet in childhood". That is a contradiction - how can he want a cold and distant wife - just like his mother - because he need intimacy? I would have thought that the craving would be for a woman quiet unlike his mother!124.197.15.138 (talk) 20:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It surely means other qualities, e.g. appearance, likes, dislikes. 75.24.187.208 (talk) 17:41, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it does not even exist?

As a trusted bystander I have witnessed a textbook clear case of MWC, eventually after the divorce and her re-engaging another partner, the truth emerged. She had been way too much for her first partner to handle. Obviously he felt suffocated and had no choice to reject her eventually and go somewhere else. But admitting that is humiliating. The MWC explanation is so much more elegant.

How many more cases could have went like that, if not most/all of them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.83.200.246 (talk) 13:10, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your opinion is particularly biased towards the wife, much like the feminist leanings in aspects of this article. Your example could just as easily have been a case of the male's misplaced chivalry or the female's hyperbole since - as you pointed out - the female admitting the problem was with her would be humiliating. It's entirely possible for someone with a close maternal relationship and a history of female bullying to develop a MWC. A couple's relationship can start on equal terms; actively sexual and adventurous, then the otherwise healthy male can gradually slide into impotence as the emotional connection deepens. Yes there are a lot of possible alternatives, but that doesn't simply mean the condition doesn't exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:4806:3000:C0FC:CE8B:D25A:C01A (talk) 13:06, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup / split proposal

IMO this article could use some major cleanup. First of all, I think we should split this into one article for psychiatric disorder theorized by Freud (which doesn't seem to be in the DSM-IV, and, AFAIK, hasn't been classified as a disorder by mainstream psychiatry in over a generation) and the sociological / feminist / anthopological concept of a virgin-whore dichotomy. Here's a Google Scholar search link if anyone's interested. After the split, the article on the Freudian concept could use some more historical context (Was it ever in the DSM? If it was taken out, when and why? Was it replaced with other disorder classifications?). -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 09:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since the term Virgin–whore dichotomy is not actually used in the article, I cannot see how it is possible to split the article. If you have the material for another article then I suggest that you create that article and if required copy/move material from this article. Op47 (talk) 14:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What is this article including?

Is this article also including the virgin–whore complex too? They seem similar to me. --MurderByDeadcopy^"bang!" 17:28, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Borderline Personality Disorder

Why is Borderline Personality Disorder linked as relevant? Neither page mentions each other, and I know of no connection between the two (besides the fact that they are both concepts within psychology). 209.122.211.116 (talk) 13:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I found the revision it was added in: https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Madonna%E2%80%93whore_complex&diff=prev&oldid=563693311 209.122.211.116 (talk) 14:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Possible answer: BPD also includes a tendency to see relationship partners in extreme terms, as either all good or all bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C52:7A00:2A85:88C6:5D1A:1095:B22D (talk) 18:36, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

En dash versus hyphen

Both in this article and in this discussion there is an inconsistency as to whether to use an en dash, –, or a hyphen, -, to separate Madonna-whore. I believe the correct spelling is with a hyphen, because it links the two concepts. An en dash would be appropriate to indicate the range between two concepts, as in "from Madonna to whore", which is not what Freud was talking about. An em dash, —, also appears here and there in the article and is completely wrong. Annoyingly, I believe this will also affect the title of the article. Can we agree to use the hyphen consistently here? Kit Cloudkicker (talk) 15:33, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per MOS:ENBETWEEN, the en dash is used to link separate or independent elements when the connection might otherwise be expressed with to, versus, and, or between. In this case I think the term implies Madonna and whore complex or Madonna versus whore complex. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:39, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weird video game reference

"The term is also used popularly, if sometimes with subtly different meanings. This applies to Miu Iruma's hypersexuality"

The short section should probably be removed, especially the reference to some random character from a video game. If kept it should at least be properly cited. --Badpagenoticer (talk) 20:56, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it EvergreenFir (talk) 21:22, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A strictly Freudian concept?

Greetings, all. The so-called "Madonna-whore complex" seems to have been claimed and developed practically exclusively by Sigmund Freud. It is, moreover, strongly disputed in modern psychoanalysis. Shouldn't these facts be reflected in the definition of the term? E.g. "In psychoanalytic literature, a Madonna–whore complex, also called a Madonna–mistress complex, is a Freudian concept about the ostensible inability by males to maintain sexual arousal within a committed, loving relationship." Thoughts? -The Gnome (talk) 14:05, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please expand on why it is disputed in modern psychoanalysis, and by whom? For instance, a Lacanian analyst--which there are many of in South America--probably wouldn't dispute the extistence of a Madonna-Whore complex. Yes it's true that Psychoanalysis was heavily received in the English speaking world, but we cannot restrict ourselves merely to the anglophone world when evaluating something so general as the "modern" form of a discipline. In any case, I myself was not aware it was in dispute, and I'd be interested to read some articles on it: to the contrary, I thought it was one of the most well-accepted aspects of the Freudian theory. 37.203.151.153 (talk) 01:07, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]