Talk:Macedonian nationalism

"Macedondom" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Macedondom. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

This article lacks a lot of sources for outrageous not backed claims. Тутуноберач (talk) 11:48, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

This claim above lacks any concrete proves. I see over 160 sources under line. However in such cases you can question an uncited claim by inserting . Jingiby (talk) 11:57, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Nick Anastasovski and 19th century Macedonia

As of now, two separate fellow Wikipedists wanted to delete my contribution - one accusing me of "original research" (which is a bold claim because I'm certainly not an author of the cited source), other than it's just the opinion of one researcher which is contradicted by others.

Alright, so - can I see the sources that contradict what Nick Anastasovski wrote? Furthermore, how is it Anastasovski's mere opinion if he cites Petko Rachev Slaveykov and Crawfurd Price to back his point - something that my contribution includes?

I fail to see how I'm in the wrong here, although I'm sorry that my contribution proved to be so controversial. I'd ask the people involved to contact the Arbitration Committee or admins to settle this dispute, because I don't see how Anastasovski's work is unreliable (especially if he uses cites contemporary people's relations). If the higher-ups decide that sources I used are indeed unreliable, I'll back down. Otherwise, I ask my dear Wikipedist Jingiby to stop deleting my edit. Brat Forelli (talk) 13:08, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Who is Nick Anastasovski and in which university centers his works have been published? Jingiby (talk) 13:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

When it comes to this work, it says that it was submitted to Victoria University, Australia. When it comes to the theses he makes, he backs them with sources - D. Dakin, The Greek Struggle in Macedonia 1897–1913 in case of the meaning of "Bulgarian" thingy, and H. Andonov-Poljanski, editor. Documents - on the Struggle of the Macedonian People for Independence and a Nation State, Vol 1, Skopje, 1985 in case of the identity information. Brat Forelli (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

A distinction must be made regarding the meaning of the terms before the rise of nationalism in the Ottoman Empire and after it. As nationalism manifested itself to a considerable degree at different times among the separate nationalities of the Empire, this must also be taken into account. For example, Bulgarian nationalism was born at the end of the 18th century in the writings of Paisii Hilendarski, but showed its rise from the middle of the 19th century. Similarly, Macedonian nationalism originated in Pulevski's writings in the late 19th century, but saw its significant rise in the mid-20th century. In this regard, Macedonian as a terminology has the primary meaning of Macedonian Bulgarian at the end of the 19th century, and acquired a completely independent national meaning in the middle of the 20th century. In the same way a Bulgarian meant a peasant in the early 19th century but changed its meaning to a distinct nationality in the middle of the same century. Jingiby (talk) 15:02, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Alright, yes - I agree. Can you explain what the problem is then? Maybe it's my fault in that I worded my summary badly, which is the source of these problems. Brat Forelli (talk) 15:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello. I already clarified to you what OR stands for here. I'm not accusing you of authoring the source. The following statements you wrote are not directly supported by the source:

- "In 1875, Georgi Pulevski published Dictionary of Three Languages where he asserts that Macedonians don't possess a feeling of Bulgarian nationality." In the source, Anastasovski attributed that claim to Horace Lunt.

- "Despite this, foreign commentators of 19th century often disregarded the expression of Macedonian national identity, something that Anastasovski attributes to the influence of Bulgarian guides that accompanied foreign visitors." The source does not mention that these so-called guides were Bulgarian guides.

A better question would be to ask who Crawfurd Price was and why is he worthy of a mention here? Also, Anastasovski did not actually cite Slaveykov, but a source which appears to be unreliable. I have not commented whether Anastasovski's thesis is unreliable or not, however his view should not be given that much attention, since it is a minority view. As a whole, the entry is not an improvement, since it really does not add anything new. Much of Anastasovski's information is already part of the article. StephenMacky1 (talk) 16:04, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

UMD, its views and Macedonian nationalism

At the request of the founded in 2004 nationalist United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD), in 2021 the US congressman Brendan Boyle introduced in the House of Representatives a draft of a non-binding resolution with an official title: "Expressing support for the designation of the month of September 2022 as "Macedonian American Heritage Month". The United Macedonian Diaspora is recognized as a serious lobbyist of Macedonian interests in the United States. The resolution has mentioned some historical figures from the 19 and the early 20th century US as Macedonians and insisted the first Macedonian immigrants reached the territory of today's United States even before Columbus discovered America. That caused the critical reaction of the oldest organization of the Macedonian immigrants in North America, the Macedonian Patriotic Organization. It has sent an address to the US Congress on who Macedonian Bulgarians are, insisting the first Macedonian Slavic immigrants identified themselves as Bulgarians, at least until the middle of the 20th century. For the same purpose, again at the initiative of the MPO, a petition to Congress has been prepared, insisting to suspend this resolution. The Bulgarian ambassador to the USA, Georgi Panayotov confirmed there was an attempt to pass an incorrect resolution in the Congress, but resumed he will take measures on the matter. On the occasion of UMD biased activity the branch of the MPO in Chicago began to send the book "UMD (United Macedonian Diaspora) children of the Lie" to all US Congressmen and local parliaments in each US state. As result the resolution failed. I consider this scandal a manifestation of Macedonian nationalism abroad in its purest form, and I see no reason why these events should not be reflected in the article, especially since they are undeniable. Jingiby (talk) 06:16, 10 January 2023 (UTC) Jingiby (talk) 06:16, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Is this article supposed to contain a listing of every idea made by every Macedonian group? I think not. Find a (preferably academic) source that states a common belief among Macedonian nationalists is that ethnic Macedonians predated Columbus in the Americas. Thanks. --Local hero ^talk 15:23, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Contemporary ideas subsection

I propose that the "Contemporary ideas" subsection be deleted, as not only does it extensivly violate WP:NOTESSAY, it also violates WP:NPOV and some of the statements are either not sourced or poorly sourced. It is clearly not in spirit of what Wikipedia is meant to be, hence why it should be deleted. I've opened this discussion in order to reach a consensus on this issue. Best regards to all. Kluche (talk) 14:20, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

At the very least, all of the uncited stuff must go. After that, not much is left anyway. --Local hero ^talk 20:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Support. The remaining reliably sourced information can be integrated elsewhere. StephenMacky1 (talk) 21:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

The name of Macedonia prohibited in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia

Was it prohibited with an official decree? To what extent was it prohibited (for example, maybe officials were instructed not to use it, but citizens could use it) and was this the case throughout the whole existence of the kingdom in the interwar period, ie. 1918-1941? I used Luch as one example of use of the name. And Luch did exist for about a year, not a few months, and is it certain that the use of the name Macedonia was the reason the magazine was banned, after issuing about 10 issues? @Jingiby Идеологист (talk) 08:55, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the process went. I guess this happened gradually to stop the development of a separate Macedonian national consciousness. The ban was hardly absolute and official, but in general, initially in Serbia before the Balkan Wars there was talk of a territory in the Ottoman Empire called Southern Serbia and Macedonia. After the annexation of the area following the Balkan Wars, it was called already only Southern Serbia, and the term Macedonia fell out of use. After the First World War, the name became Vardar Banovina. In schools, in the morning before reading the prayer, the students must say out loud three times: "I am a real Serb; My father and my mother are real Serbs.” Jingiby (talk) 10:24, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I think we should rephrase that sentence then to portray this more accurately. Do you have any suggestions? Идеологист (talk) 14:56, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure. For example per Chris Kostov's book Contested Ethnic Identity: The Case of Macedonian Immigrants in Toronto, issued by Peter Lang in 2010: The Serbian government even banned the name Macedonia and called the region Vardar Banovina [province]. This claim is on p. 76. There are also more ornate attempts to explain the problem in a slightly different way without affecting the common Yugoslav past. See for example the explanation of this author from North Macedonia Nada Boskovska. She maintains in the book Yugoslavia and Macedonia Before Tito: Between Repression and Integration on pp. 3-4: In the interwar period the term Macedonia soon became scorned in Yugoslavia... this whole region was declared to be South Serbia... Later the term 'South Serbia' did not disappear from common usage. Those who wanted to avoid using this term at the end of the 1930s, but did not dare to use the term 'Macedonia', spoke of South or Povardarie. Jingiby (talk) 17:08, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

It seems to me that Kostov uses "banned" in the sense that you may face some problems if you use it, not caring to clear up if it was officially banned. I think Boshkovska is trying to understand the topic and explain it in a neutral way. Luch authors also use South or Povardarie. Идеологист (talk) 20:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)