Talk:Macedonian Radio Television

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Name change

This page was moved back to its old name, despite the name having been changed more than a year ago (as can be seen here). This was discussed in the "North Macedonia" article, where the name was mentioned. Please revert the change. --Antondimak (talk) 06:42, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Looking at MRT's website, it doesn't seem like the name has been changed at all. --Local hero ^talk 14:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Look at the official government documents that affirm the change, it seems it has. --Antondimak (talk) 15:19, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Lol, so do we go with what it's actually called or that document listing all these name changes? Not sure if you can tune to the channel yourself, but it's definitely still MRT. So, do we go with the actual website or this document you found? --Local hero ^talk 15:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

We go with the official name not with inertial marketing. --Antondimak (talk) 15:27, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, I've requested a third opinion, so hang tight. --Local hero ^talk 15:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I'll also point out that on Wikipedia we generally go with the common name. So, even if NRT is official (appears not to be the case), this article title should remain at MRT because it's absolutely the common name. --Local hero ^talk 15:39, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

The broadcaster is definitely still called MRT. I used to edit Eurovision Song Contest articles on here and logged into my account to find it renamed to this NRT. Not to mention, the renaming provides no sources to back it up; the broadcaster still goes by Macedonian Radio Television and still uses the logo which was deemed as "the older logo". In my past experience, this sorta comes off as an overzealous effort motivated by other factors that have nothing to do with building an accurate encyclopedia. The same edits occurred on the MRT Center page where the user had reinstated their unsourced edits and page move quite recently. Pickette (talk) 21:18, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Based on the list you provided above, you can at most write that there is some decree to rename this broadcaster but that such a name change has yet to occur as it clearly hasn't. Pickette (talk) 21:22, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

This is the document which renames the company. Marketing often lags behind, especially in this case since there is significant politically motivated opposition to the official name. --Antondimak (talk) 07:55, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

So what if there's a document that says that the television should change its name? That still hasn't happened. It's MRT everywhere, on the official page, on EBU and anywhere where it's mentioned. Once the TV officially changes its name (if that happens) then we can also change the title of the article on Wikipedia. Otherwise, your claim is a pure WP:POV. — Tom^(T2ME) 08:40, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

It isn't just some random document, it documents the official act of the North Macedonian government in changing the name. That should be enough, but here's a second-hand source documenting the change as well. --Antondimak (talk) 10:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that while these changes may have been announced, they haven't happened yet. Like I said before, you can at most add a blurb to the page stating that there is a decree to rename this broadcaster and cite your sources above. However, until this name change actually happens, the broadcaster is still known as Macedonian Radio Television. The name and logo are still in use. Pickette (talk) 14:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The "official act of the North Macedonian government" doesn't matter. Governments can say whatever they want. What matters is what is actually DONE. Pickette mentioned that the station still displays the old logo on its broadcasts. Assuming that that is true, the "old" name should remain. With a note about the government's announcement, of course. --Khajidha (talk) 14:40, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The new names stated in the document were only recommendations as the government can not legally change names of institutions that are not under its direct control. This topic has been discussed on the 124th gov't meeting (2019) an the wording used is "Guidelines on the implementation of the obligations of the Republic of North Macedonia arising from the Final Agreement and the Constitutional Amendments", with no direct legal implications.

Four years later, most institutions have changed their names, however some have not. MNT, MANU, MRT are some I can think of. According their most recent statute, Statute of the Public broadcasting corporation MACEDONIAN RADIOTELEVISION Skopje also published in the Official gazette of Republic of North Macedonia 181/2019 on 3 September 2019, the official name is Macedonian Radiotelevision. Under the same name it is registered in the central registry. The most recent document I could find is from a week ago [1], an the stamp on it, uses the same official name.

Having this in mind, I do not think that the name "National Radiotelevision" should be used in the article, as the only mentions of it are in the linked document with recommendations and subsequent news articles about the gov't meeting. Pta345MK (talk) 14:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Good points, thanks for providing this updated info. --Local hero ^talk 16:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

It is the official name as used by the government in general when referring to the organisation, The other document I had sent, and whose link no longer works, showed this. It is still also used in some marketing. The note at least should stay. --Antondimak (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the government has used the abbreviation NRTV a few times, namely the former prime minister, the current one once[2], and couple other ministers ever since, but that does not make it official by any mean. There no official documents using that name. Eventually, it was gov'ts recommendation to change the name. My guess is that the use of the recommended new name was their way to force it upon the management board of the MRT (which is constitutionally independent), and the broader public which eventually ended up unsuccessful. However, not even all ministers have a consensus on what name to use, as some have used MRT[3] and others NRTV[4].

For that matter, the colloquially used term for the network is MTV (Makedonska Televizija) or Radio Skopje, when the radio stations are in question. There is no point in listing either the gov'ts suggestion (which never saw the light of the day) or how everyone else refers to the network (the name under which the network was branded up until 10 or 11 years ago) as both of them are not official.

As per WP:NPOV the only mention of this name can be in the History section as the following:

In March 2019, the government of North Macedonia recommended to the Board of the MRT to change the name of the network to "National Radiotelevision" in light of the Prespa agreement.[5] However such changes have not been made.

Pta345MK (talk) 23:09, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Maybe it can be recovered, but the now broken link showed it being used in official documents, not just government members using it in their personal language. It is also used in some marketing (like the Facebook page). Since there is definitely some usage of the new name, even though it isn't the most common (and hence not used in the title), I think it should be included.

If it's considered to clutter the introduction, and in the interest of not getting involved in another long and fruitless argument, I would compromise on your version before all the disruption yesterday, where it was put under a note. --Antondimak (talk) 09:50, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I looked at all of the links that you have mentioned on this talk page. The only broken link is from komspi.mk, which is the old website of the Agency for protection of the right to free access to public information which back then functioned as a commission, hence the 'KOM' in the abbreviation. The very same page is available on their new website aspi.mk, as well as a copy of the original page on the web аrchive. I have no idea why they are using that name, but my guess is that the person who is responsible for updating the records thought that the name has been officially changed. If you are looking for a governmental data base, then the central registry is the only relevant one. WP:REL WP:RS

Another document mentioned, is a presentation of the Ministry of Administration for the national budget for 2020. It refers to the national broadcaster as Национална Радио Телевизија, however it is not an official document. Similarly to the usage of the NRTV abbreviation discussed in the previous comment. The official document, the national budget MoF website, only says funds for public broadcasting services.

The facebook page in question that you have mentioned has a description "Неофицијална страна на националната радиотелевизија" where неофицијална means 'unofficial'. A quick overlook of the page it is clear that it is just a fake fan page (if it even can be named as such) which only has some random posts: logos of other news agencies, an elementary school science quiz question, Turkish soap operas episodes, Garfield show episodes, lego figures, some other random stuff that have no connection to the public broadcaster (attn: Direct links to Facebook). Also, this screenshot on ibb.co shows all of the page's former names. I believe I do not need to continue with linking other arguments on why this facebook page is so irrelevant. WP:UGC WP:REL

Having all this in mind, the only reasonable place to mention the alternative name is in the history section. When I initially put the name National Radiotelevision as a note, I thought that it was the way how the network was officially registered in the CR. But after researching this myself I realised that I was in wrong. Pta345MK (talk) 16:09, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

What if we remove the section stating that its called NRT and add a note stating "Due to the Macedonian naming dispute its referred to as "National Radio Television" (insert Macedonian translation here) by some media's" Gurther (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

The problem with that is that there are no relevant news articles using that new name. Almost all media mentions of it, in Macedonian, are from March 2019, when that suggestion was proposed by the gov't. The name Macedonian Radiotelevision or its abbreviation MRT have been used by different regional and international agencies and outlets like Greece's ANE-MPE, Bulgaria's BTA and BNT, Yahoo, Euronews, BBC.

Unless the MRT changes it name to National Radiotelevision (of North Macedonia), the only reference of that variant, should be in the history section.

In March 2019, the government of North Macedonia recommended to the Board of the MRT to change the name of the network to "National Radiotelevision" in light of the Prespa agreement.[6] Even though such changes were not made, some government officials have since used the abbreviation NRTV when referring to the network.[7][8]

Pta345MK (talk) 20:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Dear fellow editors,

I would like to express my support for Pta345MK and the evidence they have provided regarding the name of the Macedonian Radio Television (MRT). The sources they have shared clearly demonstrate that the current name of the TV station is "Macedonian Radio Television" or "MRT." These sources, including official documents and reputable news articles, consistently refer to the TV station by this name.

I encourage all editors to carefully review the evidence shared by Pta345MK and consider the consensus we can reach based on reliable sourcing and accuracy. Let us work together to ensure the article reflects the most accurate and up-to-date information regarding the name of the Macedonian Radio Television.

Thank you.

Best regards, Blesingri (talk) 21:32, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

To my mind, it isn't clear from the list cited by Antondimak to what extent those renamings have in fact officially been performed – is it really documenting an official "act", as Antondimak claimed above (without any evidence that I can see), or is it just a statement of the government's plans, a statement of intent, a statement about what they think they are obliged to achieve – or a statement about what they have already done? There is no explanation in the document itself, and we have no information about the context in which it was published. It seems extremely unlikely that the renamings should actually have been performed by this document – in that case we'd expect a much more formal framing. It is also not clear to me to what extent and in what ways the government even has the legal power to change this particular name. If the institution has been established by law, would it need another law to change it? Or some official act of the organization's governing body? Governments can't just do anything they want by fiat. In the absence of more concrete information, and on the prima facie evidence of the old name still being used in practice, I see no reason to press ahead with renaming pages here at this point. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:22, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if an editor who is a native speaker of the language could clarify exactly what has happened. I will edit the page again to reflect that (not only the name was reverted). Now, because my edits have repeatedly been called vandalism, I want to explain what happened here a bit. I changed the name and made some other changes to the article after the source of the renaming was provided and it was agreed that the page should be moved without opposition in the talk page of North Macedonia. After the article remained stable for quite some time, I saw it being renamed with no discussion and no reason given, so I brought it back, along with all the other references to it as well. Doing that, I also noticed some awkward phrasing, repeating the former constitutional name in every sentence. I replaced half of these references with "the country". This was reverted as well, and then some other mention using the newly accepted name was replaced with "the country", I will suppose out of good will that it just happened to be so. There was also some insistence to use the post-1991 name for the Serbian region, which was quite confusing. Anyway, most of this doesn't matter to the discussion, but it would be nice if we could simply talk and not move to accusations. --Antondimak (talk) 11:30, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

I am a native Macedonian speaker and the document you posted has a list of 136 institutions that changed the name to either include the new name, or to be renamed as "National". Macedonian Radio and Television (MRT) is not in that list. So the name of MRT didn't change. GStojanov (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:56, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

What is number 25 then? --Antondimak (talk) 15:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

I am translating line 25: "The public radiodifusion company Macedonian Radiotelevision - Skopje" the new official title is: "The public radiodifusion company National Radiotelevision - Skopje". It is possible that this is the official name of the Macedonian Radio Television, but it is more likely that this is a company that is responsible for the maintenance of the radio and TV transmitters. In any case the common name didn't change. It is still called MRT. GStojanov (talk) 16:02, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, I find it extremely far-fetched that the entry in the government list should be referring to some other institution. The only difference in the name is that in the government list "Радиотелевизија" is spelled in one word, whereas according to our article's lead sentence it's in two words ("радио телевизија") – but the MRT website itself also uses the one-word spelling, as does the mk wikipedia article. And doesn't "Јавно радиодифузно претпријатие" mean "public broadcasting company", which is exactly what MRT is? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:34, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

I want to also add that "Radio Television" and "Radiotelevision" are often interchangeable in my experience, at least when it comes to Balkan languages. --Antondimak (talk) 06:14, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, so we've established that there is some direction to rename the broadcaster from the government. I propose this is added to the current page and cited. The name and logo stand until the renaming actually takes place. The broadcaster still operates as Macedonian Radio Television and still uses the MRT abbreviation and logo. Pickette (talk) 22:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

From what I understand it seems to have been renamed, but it just hasn't changed its logo and its marketing name. So we could go with something like "officially 'National Radio Television'", while using the common name throughout the article and in other articles where it's mentioned, if that turns out to be the case. --Antondimak (talk) 11:38, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I am against renaming this article and referring to this broadcaster as anything but Macedonian Radio Television until we have evidence that this name is no longer in use; the institution still refers to itself under that name. It seems based on a Google search that this broadcaster may even be renamed to North Macedonian Radio Television [9] - just used Google translate on the article so not sure if I understood it correctly. Again, any changes are not reflected by the organization at this time. Pickette (talk) 17:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

That article is just saying that Google started putting "North" in front of MRT on Google maps when the article was written in March 2019. Looking at Google maps right now, it's just Macedonian Radio Television. --Local hero ^talk 18:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The name of national broadcasting service of NM is called MRT. If that changes, the wikipedia article can change too, but nothing indicates that it has changed in any way.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:06, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• We will not change the name of the article, if the subject does not change its own name. It maybe will do so in the future, but until then, there is nothing to do in that regard. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:27, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
• I forgot to mention, a reason I think the name has in fact changed, and just isn't in wide use yet, is the fact that the facebook page uses the new name, and the new name is also used here, in a government website, and in this other government document. This, along with the previous document, and the articles such as the one I linked before reporting on the new name, leads me to believe that, officially, the change has taken place. --Antondimak (talk) 12:05, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

The Facebook page linked on MRT's own website (here) has МРТВ as the name, same with Twitter, etc. --Local hero ^talk 15:24, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Full stop

Hello everybody, I would like to remind that the official names of national institutions in a single country are determined by official order and are subject to entry in special lists. Just as the official name of the country was changed under the Prespa Agreement, so was the name of the television. This is evident from the attached list on the website of the government of North Macedonia with the new names of the institutions in the state. It is clearly written there under No. 25 Old name: Public Broadcasting Company "Macedonian Radio Television" - Skopje; new name: Public Broadcasting Company "National Radio Television" - Skopje. Check here please. The link is an extension of the official government website: https://vlada.mk/sites/default/files/. It is well known that the Prespa Agreement is systematically not respected in North Macedonian media, but these bad practices have nothing to do with the legal status of the institutions and their official names. That the population rejects the new names and related changes is also well known. So let's stick to official documents. Until a new official list is presented showing that there is a new name change, I suggest we stick to the current list on the official government website. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 15:17, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jingiby, please read the discussion in the previous section. There you will see the explanation why the list that you linked is not a relevant source. Forcing the name National Radiotelevision is nothing more than pushing an agenda. This is an encyclopedia article on the public broadcaster of North Macedonia, and not a debate page on what its name is, or on how it should be named.

To sumarize, the only official name of the broadcaster is Macedonian Radiotelevision. The government in March 2019 suggested a name change, however it was not implemented, for various reasons (It is not on us to debate whether they are justified or not). This version of the page fully reflects on the factual reality and covers all of the questions that might arise from the aftermath of the signing of the Prespa agreement. Pta345MK (talk) 16:42, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Dear @Jingiby,

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I have reviewed the official government website link you shared, as well as the evidence presented by @Pta345MK regarding the autonomy and registration of Macedonian Radio Television (MRT) in the Central Registry.

While the government's list of suggested names that you have referenced is noteworthy, it's essential to consider the autonomy of MRT as an organization. As mentioned by Pta345MK, MRT is registered under "Macedonian Radio Television" in North Macedonia's Central Registry, indicating its official name within the country.

On Wikipedia, it is crucial to rely on reliable sources and adhere to neutrality. Official government documents are significant, but more so is the evidence provided by Pta345MK, which highlights the registered name of MRT.

To ensure accuracy and neutrality in the article, it is important to reflect the commonly recognized and registered name of "Macedonian Radio Television" (MRT) while providing proper context and sourcing for any name changes mentioned in official government documents.

Thank you. Blesingri (talk) 16:59, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I didn't understand something, but I would like to hear the opinion of User:Antondimak before I revert myself to the previous version. By the way, I found an interesting article by Dragan Sekulovski, the Executive Director of the Association of Journalists of North Macedonia. The publication is on the site of the Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung here. Its title is "Macedonian Radio Television in Need of New Professional Standards." On the first page of the publication, the following note about MRT-name is displayed under the line below: The name is changed into National Broadcasting Service based on the Governmental decision from 05.03.2019. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 18:02, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

It is possible even for official changes to subsequently be ignored even in official documents, which seems to have happened here. I believe Pta345MK is right and the name hasn't officially changed either. Or, kind of. The official act of changing it has happened, but it still uses the old name both commercially and officially. That second part is what I was wrong about (and it wasn't really certain when the first discussion took place). Therefore I think we could readd the relevant note, especially since the non-fully-implemented former new official name was both necessary when it came to the agreement, and, more importantly, it had some official and unofficial use. But it should probably be something like "Officially proposed to be renamed as National Radio-Television (Macedonian: Национална Радиотелевизија, romanized: Nacionalna Radiotelevizija)" (or something less awkwardly phrased), instead. -- Antondimak (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

There are no official acts changing the name. Because of the complex bureaucratic organization of the public broadcasting services which are defined in the law on audio and audiovisual media services, any changes of the name of the broadcaster (or anything else that affects the public broadcaster for that matter) should be approved by a simple majority of the board of the MRT (mk: Програмски совет на МРТ) and by a law change by the Assembly with requires a constitutional majority (2/3), a principle defined in Article 17 of the constitution. For context, an initial decision by the Board is not mandatory if the parliament decides to vote on the law alone, but according to the law, as they are an independent body, they should initiate any changes first. Also, those members of the board are also elected by the Assembly with a constitutional majority (2/3). Pta345MK (talk) 23:06, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok then, which version should we stick with? Should be re-add the Note? Jingiby (talk) 03:33, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, thank you for your contributions to the ongoing discussion. Based on the conversation between Antondimak, Pta345MK, and yourself, there seems to be a growing consensus regarding the official name of Macedonian Radio Television (MRT).

Considering the points raised by Pta345MK, I support the idea of removing the note regarding the proposed name from the main section of the article. Instead, we can mention it in the History section to provide context and a clear timeline of any official proposals or changes related to MRT's name.

By relocating the information to the History section, we can maintain the accuracy and clarity of the main section while still acknowledging the proposed name change in a dedicated section where it is more appropriately addressed.

I propose that we follow this approach to ensure that the article reflects the current status of MRT's name and provides comprehensive historical information in a structured manner.

Thank you for considering this suggestion.

Best regards, Blesingri (talk) 08:58, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

That's fine by me. -- Antondimak (talk) 22:54, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree too. Please, Blesingri do it. Jingiby (talk) 07:26, 29 May 2023 (UTC)