Talk:M23 campaign (2022–present)

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On 9 February 2025, it was proposed that this article be moved to M23 rebellion (2017–present). The result of the discussion was partially moved, moving and DABing M23 rebellion.

Requested move 15 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 08:32, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

M23 offensive (2022) → 2022 M23 offensive – Better, smoother-running title. Note we have 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine instead of Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022). Such titles are permitted on Wikipedia per WP:NCNUM#Year in front. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:12, 15 June 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 17:48, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose: "2022 M23 offensive" is extremely confusing, as a new reader would not know what belongs where. They could very well think that this is an offensive by the "2022 M23" group - M23 literally stands for "March 23". "M23 offensive (2022)" avoids this confusion - and to counter your argument, most of the sub-campaigns of the 2022 Russian invasion are tittled "name (2022)", see Kyiv offensive (2022), Battle of Kyiv (2022), Battle of Kharkiv (2022), Battle of Izium (2022), etc. Applodion (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Why not name this article "Second M23 rebellion", and move M23 rebellion to "First M23 rebellion"? Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 21:28, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Probably per WP:COMMONNAME. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 23:13, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mikrobølgeovn: In addition to the lack of sources calling this a second rebellion (while most call it an offensive), the "Second M23 rebellion" actually began in 2017 when Sultani Makenga returned from exile. M23 has continued to wage an (extremely low-level) insurgency since that time, with a bit more notable attacks in late 2021 and early 2022. It's just that nobody cared when they just held some camps in the mountains and acted like the average bandit / village militia. Applodion (talk) 09:31, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lead

A really nice piece of work. I hope that it will shortly be turning up at GAN. (Although it will need a more comprehensive lead first.) Gog the Mild (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

offensive?

"offensive" does not seem to be an appropriate title for the subject. The French Wikipedia uses the term "Résurgence du M23". This is a rebellion or insurgency. Fontaine347 (talk) 18:45, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure of your command of English? This is a particular offensive of that insurgency. 86.31.178.164 (talk) 21:33, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The article is describing an insurgency instead of an offensive.

An offensive is what happened in Goma (2025 Goma offensive).--Fontaine347 (talk) 12:46, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

An M23 rebellion has been ongoing since 2017, when Sultani Makenga's forces returned from exile. However, I was WP:Bold and moved the article to "M23 campaign" as this is no longer 'just' an offensive. Applodion (talk) 20:59, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the use of "campaign". Doesn't xyz campaign suggest it takes place in an area called xyz? eg the Gallipoli campaign. 675930s (talk) 02:03, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not just North Kivu

M23 rebels control territory in both North and South Kivu according to the map, so the area of operation in the infobox should be changed Gorgedweller (talk) 12:48, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 February 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: partially moved, moving and DABing M23 rebellion to M23 rebellion (2012–2013). No consensus for the article title M23 campaign (2022–present). (closed by non-admin page mover) Bobby Cohn (talk) 21:19, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

– Sources for "M23 rebellion": Sky UK, Al Jazeera, AP, Reuters. "M23 campaign" appears to be used only by the BBC. M23 are pretty much unanimously referred to as rebels, although sometimes as militants. This would also be WP:CONSISTENT with the prior conflict. The status quo means anyone who searches "M23 rebellion" gets the 2012-2013 conflict, when they are much more likely to be searching for the current one; M23 rebellion would become a disambiguation page. Thanks Kowal2701 (talk) 20:51, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Prior discussions at Talk:M23 campaign (2022–present)#Requested move 15 June 2022, Talk:M23 campaign (2022–present)#offensive?, and Talk:M23 rebellion#Title. Kowal2701 (talk) 20:52, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The current M23 rebellion started in 2017, as mentioned in the article itself. For this longer-lasting rebellion of "2017-present", a new article should be created, instead of moving this article. Applodion (talk) 19:47, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We could widen the scope of this one to 2017 onwards? The bulk of the article would still be on 2022 onwards per WP:WEIGHT (changed nom to 2017) Kowal2701 (talk) 08:41, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The article is already quite long and still growing - cramming the 2017-2021 events into it will just cause more bloating. Applodion (talk) 11:42, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Idk, it wouldn’t have to be WP:Proseline but rather WP:Summary style. Maybe the second paragraph of the background section onward could be split off and expanded only a little bit to bring it in line with WP:Proportion? But agreed article length is already very long. Pinging @EdwinAlden.1995: who’s been putting in good work Kowal2701 (talk) 11:53, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there, @Kowal2701! That's a good point, as I, too, find the article becoming increasingly extensive. Splitting off the January 2025 operations and expanding on them would be more appropriate for readers and would better align with WP:Proportion. I think we're on the same page. EdwinAlden.1995 (talk) 16:28, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That’s a good idea regarding splitting off the January 2025 subsection into its own section. Do you think this article's scope should be pared back to cover the conflict from 2017 (with the background section retitled something like "2017-March 2022: Recommencing of the rebellion" and expanded a little), or keep the scope as is so it remains focussed on 2022 onwards? Kowal2701 (talk) 17:37, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The rapid offensives of M23 in Goma are more fitting of a campaign than a rebellion, considering they are a specific episode of a the sustained incursions into Congo by Rwanda. Campaign is less generic and carries more significance to the M23 offensive. PlacidObserver (talk) 03:09, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-Could possibly rename to "2022-present M23 campaign" to clear up any confusion. PlacidObserver (talk) 03:14, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Kowal2701! Keeping the scope from 2022 onwards would be good, but it should also be pared back to cover the conflict from 2017, mainly in the background section, as you previously stated. There's a lot of analysis on M23's motives from Jason Stearns here , here, and here, as well as from the Congo Research Group, particularly on their fight for control over Congo's natural resources and their justification of human rights violations under the pretense of combating Tutsi discrimination. Other organizations, such as the International Crisis Group, also have sources that can be used for analysis. EdwinAlden.1995 (talk) 13:48, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Okay there seems to be consensus to keep the status quo here. @EdwinAlden.1995, Applodion, and PlacidObserver: support or oppose moving M23 rebellion to M23 rebellion (2012–2013) and having M23 rebellion as a WP:disambiguation page for reasons in the nom? Kowal2701 (talk) 13:54, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, last proposal –M23 campaign (2022–present) → M23 rebellion (2017–present) and M23 rebellion → M23 rebellion (2012–2013)–, per above. Alexcalamaro (talk) 05:48, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Could it be renamed Second M23 rebellion? Sgnpkd (talk) 14:52, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, because 'rebellion' is less generic and as so not that suitable. IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 22:03, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose to move to "M23 rebellion (2017–present)" per given reasons. Support for move of M23 rebellion to "M23 rebellion (2012–2013)". Applodion (talk) 14:34, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose The main fighting and offensive has been since 2022 and its hardly a rebellion Yesyesmrcool (talk) 20:58, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.