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Gerhard Maak

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A scholarly paper I found says that Gerhard Maak was NOT Litvyak's first kill, but was Lieutenant Valeriya Khomyakova's first, and on 24 September 1943, not 27 September 1942. This source says a pilot named Maier was Litvyak's first kill. I'm taking Maak out and putting Maier in. Binksternet (talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lieutenant Valerya Khomyakova could not have scored her first kill on 24 September 1943, as she was killed on 5 October 1942 in a tragic accident. Her first nightime kill took place on 24 September 1942. (See below.) Khomyakova was the first woman fighter pilot to shoot down an enemy aircraft by night. This happened on 24 September 1942. On 5 October 1942 she crashed and was killed. The circumstances of her accidental death were never properly explained. See Reina Pennington, Wings, Women & War: Soviet Airwomen in World War II Combat. Lawrence, KS: University Press of Kansas, 2001, pp. 109 and 110. (209.161.230.158 (talk) 21:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Why Has No One Fixed These POV edits by an "Expert"?

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A recent string of edits seems to go against policies about using Wikipedia as a forum for original research (see Wikipedia:No original research). User:Kjcottam has a username that appears to link her with Kazimiera J. (Jean) Cottam, PhD, an author who has published books about Soviet women in combat. The impression I'm getting is that Cottam has performed research that points to conclusions which differ materially from that which has been published by other authors. These conclusions hold the point of view that Litvyak did not die in 1943 and that the Soviet government didn't research the death adequately. I've decided to take much of Kjcottam's entries out, holding to a neutral point of view (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), and use only the concept of inadequate Soviet research into Litvyak's death while keeping the official line that she received a mortal head wound on her last day of combat. Within Cottam's self-published entry at redarmyonline.org (a website that allows anybody to submit stories), I am not finding enough evidence to contradict the official Soviet conclusion. Evidence to the contrary appears weak. Binksternet (talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further edits by Kjcottam put the death date as unconfirmed. This is the crux of the alternate point of view and is not supported by the Soviet government. Very strong evidence to the contrary will be needed to bring Litvyak's survival of her final battle into the article.
Twice now, Kjcottam has put her own name into the article's text. I don't think such self-promotion is necessary or beneficial to the article. Binksternet (talk) 14:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Once more, I've taken out the phrase in the lead paragraph that puts doubt on the death date being August 1. Because the source supporting that date is so strong (the Soviet government under Gorbachev), any evidence to the contrary needs to be quite strong as well. The most I can see given the theory that Lily cheated death and ended up somewhere else is that an "alternate theory" section can be added which quotes a published book that says there is some evidence that the pilot lived and not enough evidence that she died. Binksternet (talk) 04:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like sightings of Elvis in Kalamazoo, all the evidence Cottam uses to "prove" Litvyak is alive is, at best, second hand. Someone may have heard her voice on a German radio 50+ years ago. Someone may have seen a woman she thought looked like Lydia decades later on Swiss TV. Litvyak might be living in Switzerland right now, Cottam claims ... really? Because Noggle, Pennington and Strebe all fail to mention these details. They do talk about female Soviet pilots who were captured by the Nazis and the concentration camps they were sent to and how members of the 588th would commit suicide over being taken prisoners of war (yes, yes, I know she wasn't part of the 588th). The only person who claims this is a "controversy" is Cottam herself, but fails to explain how Litvyak somehow survived getting shot down, survived being a prisoner of war, decided life as a national war hero too taxing and became a Swiss housewife [!?] instead who just happens to give out occasional interviews but nothing we can cite or reference. I mean, I love a good conspiracy theory like the next person, but has anyone actually read Polunina's Девчонки, подружки, летчицы? Take away that one book and the whole argument falls apart. Here's the letters to the editor where Cottam makes these claims (she cites her own work on this Wiki article as evidence):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-18520,00.html

Until Litvyak comes forward herself and tells us the story of how she went from Terror of the Nazis to Married, With Children, I'm going to assume she died in combat, sort of like what Noggle, Pennington and Strebe all claim from eye witnesses. Himeyuri (talk) 15:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cottam wrote a book called Women in Air War: The Eastern Front of World War II, so she is a reliable source. If one of her conclusions goes against the majority of other writers, then that conclusion is a notable minority opinion and we represent it as such. Binksternet (talk) 17:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've read Women in Air War: The Eastern Front of World War II which is why I say all her claims are second hand, at best (a ground mechanic 50+ years after the fact made this claim at a conference in San Diego, and that's all the proof that exists). If you can cite where in that book there is actual evidence that Litvak survived, other than the author simply saying it is so, please do so. Otherwise this sounds a lot like the whole faulty logic used in "Elvis Is Alive" where someone makes an outrageous claim and because there is no actual way to prove this, thus we now have a "controversy" (did Litvak also punch Hitler in the jaw?, since Women in the Air War makes her sound more like a superhero than an actual fighter pilot with her ability to cheat death) And speaking of poor editing and faulty logic, why are there two different photo captions on the same page of this article, each showing different planes, and each one claiming to be Litvak's first kill? The one on the left reads: A wrecked Junkers Ju 88: the first "victim" of Litvyak was an aircraft of this type and the one on the right reads: Restored Messerschmitt Bf 109G: The first fighter shot down by Litvyak was an aircraft of this type, flown by a Luftwaffe "ace". Which one is it? Himeyuri (talk) 16:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kills

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The section on kills needs to have more detail and more verification. A few of the kills don't have dates--in some cases they are simply listed in sources in a format similar to "two kills in March" with one of the kills not specified in terms of date and victim. In addition, it might be better to have this information in table format. Binksternet (talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are downright unrealistic. The information is conflicting. This kind of information is not readily available. Instead of concentrating on important issues of credibility the Wikipedia engages in the hopeless pursuit of trivia. (209.161.230.158 (talk) 22:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC))[reply]
I've added the information from an article just published in the Hungarian "Aranysas" magazine, which lists specifically twelve kills and three assists; though of course these are not official records, they're the best that I've thus far found. They've been added to the list, with the proper referencing. (2Q (talk) 04:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]
The specifics of each kill help to make this page more like other WWII ace pilot articles. It's standard fare, and I see no reason why not to have it, even with conflicting information.
About the observation balloon: I read one website that said Litvyak was awarded the Red Banner after she shot down the balloon which was a very difficult target surrounded by anti-aircraft. I read another story about it where the deed is described in detail but no word of an award. Did Litvyak get an award from the balloon kill, or not? Binksternet (talk) 22:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hopelessly inaccurate

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I'm taking a recent edit from the article and bringing it here. It appeared to me to be a talk page entry. Binksternet (talk) 20:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This again. I find Cottam's writing... questionable. I won't outright say "wrong", but I've got my doubts. I'm sure they'll have heard about it in Krasnyi Luch at the Lidia Litvyak museum; I'll be making a point of asking them when I'm there this summer to see what their opinion is. 2Q (talk) 22:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
* Re this line: "the alleged body in the common grave near Dmitrovka was never exhumed and there is absolutely no proof that Litvyak was buried there." Other reports - many more - say that the wreckage of her aircraft was actually found, and the body was retrieved then, and then buried, after ascertaining that she died from a round to the head. So the statement about exhuming the body is rather irrelevant, and smacks of revisionism. But why revise this history? It would do nothing but perhaps belittle Litvyak... 2Q (talk) 22:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
K.J. Cottam has already helped this article out by emailing me personally and pointing me to some good resources, including Pennington's work Wings, Women, and War which has subsequently been used here as a major reference. She's also written to berate me about how I'm not active in correcting the long-established mistakes and fictions that have become standard fare about Litvyak's life and death. As User:Kjcottam, she sometimes makes additions here which insert her by name as a researcher describing the primary source material; a practice that is not at all good writing style for an encyclopedia article but would be fine in a book. I appreciate Cottam's input to the degree that discussion about Litvyak remains scholarly and encyclopedic. Beyond that, I find I don't have this article high enough on my list of Things To Do to put everything else aside and doggedly research the subject. I know that a nearby university library has some less-widely-distributed works published by Cottam, as well as additional work by Pennington, but fixing this article to erase the mark of sensationalist authors like Bruce Myles will take about three or four days of my time while I go over there, read the books and make copious notes. I have to figure out when this will be, and there's no way I can guarantee anything. Binksternet (talk) 02:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Myles struck me as... well, I think the best way to describe it would be reality-based drama, which is why I used only two comments in the kills section as "oh, by the way" type of side-comments. Though not highest on my priorities either, Lidia interests me enough to go 900km out of my way this summer to go to Krasnyi Luch where her museum and monument are; I'm hoping to learn more there, perhaps they've some documents to see. I've sent K.J. Cottam an email; we'll see. We may be able to implement her conclusions on the matter into the article too, but not exclusively - I think, since she's the only one (that I've found) to make any suggestion Litvyak didn't die in 1943, that this should best be inserted alongside the Official Truth (as it were). 2Q (talk) 03:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good to know you will be taking the reins. I am already grateful for the work you've done here in sorting the kills etc. Binksternet (talk) 03:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
LoL, User:Kjcottam appears to have had her account deleted for 'blatant advertising'. Perhaps her sensationalist contributions to this article can be re-interpreted in that light. In addition, the story of Nina Raspupova's alledged sighting of Litvyak on Swiss TV in the 'Death Controversy' section also sounds like a case of 'because it's sourced, it must be true'. It is a ludicrous claim. If Litvyak was still alive in the '90s, what had she been doing since the War and why didn't she out herself earlier and claim the fame due to her? As a flight instructor she doesn't seem like sort of personality to shy away from the cameras. This kind of story has no place in an article on a site purporting to be an encyclopedia - it belongs in the tabloid news. 1812ahill (talk) 19:23, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I caution against reading anything into the blocking of Kjcottam's account. I see no reason why it should have been done, and I think it was a mistaken action. After we came to an agreement about how to work on the article, Kjcottam helped to fix it using only other people's sources, not her own. She was not self-promotional in that work, once she understood Wikipedia's rules about conflict of interest. Binksternet (talk) 00:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Litvyak moved to 437th

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I read in Pennington's that Litvyak was moved to that regiment with three other pilots, so I correct the text that writes six. --Gian piero milanetti (talk) 06:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If the 437th only used LaGG-3s, why are Litvak's kills with that unit listed as in a Yak-1? Chegitz (talk) 15:51, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This source says she used an La-5 in the 437th. http://books.google.com/books?id=5BSnZcx7HhEC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=437+soviet+fighters&source=bl&ots=IXKkuyO9kA&sig=KxzTfhHFBi_19Rrg8STPGIhWosY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XhzkUaWxH9KYrgHSwICgBw&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=437%20soviet%20fighters&f=false Chegitz (talk) 16:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This source claims Budanova got her first kills in the 437th in a LaGG-3, in which case, that's probably what Litvak was using. http://ww2db.com/person_bio.php?person_id=645 Chegitz (talk) 16:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

31 July kills?!?

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But... is the sources that states that our Lydia scored two kills on 31 July, the day before her death, reliable? I mean... in no text I can find a reference about these air victories. There is not evidence of that in Pennington, Cottam , Noggle etc. --Gian piero milanetti (talk) 21:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BERGSTROM

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There is in bibliography two times the same Bergstrom book. Is there any reason for that? --Gian piero milanetti (talk) 23:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Order of Lenin.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Last mission

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I know that the information is referenced, because I have the book that says that, but Orel is some hundreds kilometers north of the place where Litvyak aircraft fell down, in a place called Kozhevnya, where there is a memorial. Moreover, there is absolutely no evidence that Merkle was shot down by Litvyak. He was rammed and killed by a Yak-1 on Dmytrievka, but nobody saw Litvyak ramming him. Litvyak was seen for the last time while she was entering in a cloud, pursued by several German Bf 109s. I stop here for the moment. --Gian piero milanetti (talk) 04:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JG 52 in Stalingrad?

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I read in <Die Geschichte der I. Gruppe des Jagdgeschwaders 52 Offizielle Ausgabe der traditionsgemeinsch JG 52> by Bernd Barbas, pagg. 108-293 that II Gruppe JG 52 in September 1942 was in Maikop-Krymskaya, about 1,000 km far from Stallingrad, so how could Litvyak shot down a pilot from 4 Staffel JG 52 on 27 September 1942? --Gian piero milanetti (talk) 07:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JULY 1943 KILLS very unaccurate

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I think that the table with the kills of Litvyak should be deeply corrected if not deleted at all. I have just published today the most updated book about Soviet airwomen, with the newest and unpublished data and information about Litvyak available on the market. There is absolutely - for instance - no evidence that Litvyak on 16 july shot down a German ace. That day the Luftwaffe Experten listed in the teble belly landed for an engine failure subsequently an air fight. Now, this is NOT a kill. Moreover, there is only one source - Pennington, pag. 140 - that states that Litvyak that day scored a kill, while Cottam (Women in War and Resistence) writes that Litvyak that day had just to belly land. But there is absolutely no proof that anyway the German ace was hit by Litvyak, as there is not known any claims record on Litvyak side where is noted exactly the Planquadrat Koordinaten or the exact point of any of her air victory. Still, on 1st of August 1943, the Jagdeschwaders engaged along the Mius front had not aircraft damaged and Litvyak was not the one who "taran"ned Merkle, as no one of the witness saw and says that. So I propose to delete those unaccurate credited victories. --Gian piero milanetti (talk) 22:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:OrderOfLeninType1.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Important unaccuracies

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As the author of the most updated book about the Soviet airwomen I am forced to repeat that the article is full of unaccuracies, the table with the kills is ridiculous, as there are not reliable sources and the sources quoted are NOT verifiable. Gian piero milanetti (talk) 05:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Absoluteastronomy.com reliable source?

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I have several times now removed the mention of www.absoluteastronomy.com. I cannot figure how this website, consisting of user discussions, is at all reliable for our purposes. It does not meet the WP:Reliable sources guideline. Please explain the reason for putting it into the article as a reference, just so we can have a basis for discussion. Binksternet (talk) 01:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]


You are right, but, You see, Dr. Cottam is one of the (two) North American experts of the Soviet Airwomen. Probably she is not familiar with wikipedia rules, but we should consider that she has a deep knowledge of the subject and try to interact rather than to reject her contributs. However, soon my book about the Soviet airwomen will be released and hopefully somebody will be able to insert the (many) corrections needed by this article. By the way, has anybody ever checked the reliability of the kills table? THe air victories are not supported by the quoted sources. For instance, Luftwaffe on 1 August 1943 lost just two Bf 109s on Ukraine, one fighting with Il-2s and another rammed by a Yak-1, and there is no way to demonstrate that the rammed Messeschmitt was hit by Litvyak.
regards
Gian piero milanetti (talk) 18:30, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Cottam needs to learn not to talk in the article, not to repeatedly insert the same text, and not to use an unreliable source. She's intelligent enough.
Regarding the kills, there are so many contradictory sources that I think we should not use a list or table format. Only prose will supply the required context, such as who said what, and who said otherwise. Binksternet (talk) 20:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree about the need of learning but probably for her is not so easy... about the kill table I agree, that one is absolutely wrong, I have been studying the subject for year, going in Russia and Ukraine, contacting the authorities, museums etc. and there is no way to discover that Litvyak shot down those aces, actually several of her kills appear to be overclaimed and inconsistent, the sources quote DO NOT report the names of the pilots shot down by her with the exception of the kill of 27 September, that traditionally is credited to her. I have discovered some names with a long and difficult work of cross-checking the sources, German, Soviets etc. Gian piero milanetti (talk) 07:30, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hans Grünberg and the rest

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Aside from the embarrassment of being shot down by a 21 year old woman, if it is true, there seems to be no accounts of Litvyak in German literature. At least I havn't found one. Could the 'female ace thing' just be propaganda? It certainly fits in with the Communist ideal. Dapi89 (talk) 12:19, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why would anyone translate the surname "Литвяк" as "Litvyak" rather then "Litvak"?

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Any one fluently speaking and writing both languages? It seems that the letter "я" is read "Ya", but not if it comes after a Consonant as it is here.עמירם פאל (talk) 10:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I’m native Russian speaker. There are many standards of transliteration of the Russian names from cyrillic to latin letters, but it seems there is no standard that uses latin “А” for cyrillic “Я”. For reference check Common systems for romanizing Russian. It is common to use “YA” for “Я”. And regarding the sound, in this case “Я” sounds like in “yummy”. User13863 (talk) 15:07, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Litvyak downed in Orel??

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I have not checked this page lately... there are absolutely wrong informations: I have been in Dmitryevka where Litvyak is officially buried in Brotherhood Tomb no 19, and where she was shot down, while clashing with German Messerchmitts of JG 52 or JG 3. The place is in south-east Ukraine, several hundreds miles south-east of Orel, I can't believe it! --Gian piero milanetti (talk) 22:46, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible for you to edit the material in question? I agree with what you say but I do not have the information to make the corrections you point out. If there is any way I can be of service please let me know. Corrections need to be made. Beag maclir (talk) 15:12, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fount of truth

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Since when is the Soviet Union's official data about Litvyak, and in general, treated like a fountain of truth? Kazimiera. J. Cottam, PhD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.36.118.140 (talk • contribs)

Reliability of historian K. J. Cottam with PhD frin history om the prestigious University of Toronto.

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K. J. Cottam was employed by Canadian Military Intelligence and was awarded a very high security clearance. The Canadian military found her completely trustworthy. Yet she is perpetually insulted by opinionated individuals who say nonsense about the fate of Lidya Litvyak. I am convinced that in the end the truth, i.e. Cottam's solid and dependable writing, will prevail. (Anonymous.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.157.207.157 (talk) 18:58, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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"born in Moscow into a Jewish-Russian family"

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This statement is solely based on Israeli sources from recent years - a propaganda article by Israeli Air Force, a transcript of a speech by Israeli defense minister who barely mentions Litvyak and two articles, one of them also barely mentions her. None of them provides any sources in support of her supposed Jewish origins, they only state that for some reason she is commemorated as a Jewish pilot in Israel and that few people are aware of that. At the same time, the scan of the official Award list from 1943 where Litvyak's ethnicity is clearly written down as "Russian" is simply removed by עמירם פאל. This is not gonna be s stable version unless he comes up with some strong evidence. AveTory (talk) 15:55, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, he who thinks that Israeli defence minister, Israeli air force, and so forth, are not reliable sources can claim such claims, I think otherwise.עמירם פאל (talk) 09:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not a since document from the Soviet Union indicates she was Jewish. The Israeli military can claim whatever they want, but that does not magically change what her soviet air force identification paperwork said.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 15:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No contradiction, she was a Jewish - Russian. עמירם פאל (talk) 19:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Being labeled as Jewish by members of the Israeli government who never met her doesn't prove that she was Jewish. Litvyak absolutely did not practice Judaism and her ethnicity in enlistment documents is listed as "Russian", not "Jewish" (since Jewish was one of the options for filling out the form). And all claims that she is Jewish are from sources with little connection to of knowledge of Litvyak. Rumors and claims spread by politicans do not count as reliable sources. A politician can claim Litvyak won the super bowl or went to space - but that wouldn't make it true! What is know for sure is that people who knew Litvyak in person haven't described her as Jewish AND that none of her documents say she was Jewish. Now excuse me if I find that paperwork filled out by Litvyak is a more reliable source for establishing her identity than what some politican trying to score points said.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 20:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, "Jewish" was a separate ethnicity in the USSR. If a person came from a Jewish family, than the 5th line in official documents read "Jewish" no matter where that person was born. You may compare it to the Award list scan of the famous Soviet actor Vladimir Etush, for example: also born in Moscow, he is written down as "Jewish". As well as plenty of other Jewish soldiers who took part in the war. AveTory (talk) 21:46, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
PlanespotterA320, AveTory, how about a compromise - a sentence like that: In the official Soviet documents she is presented as Russian, but in Israeli sources she is presented as Jewish. עמירם פאל (talk) 14:03, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the importance of this information. There is nothing in her bio that shows her connection to Jewish culture, Israel (which was established only after her death) or how her supposed Jewishness influenced her life. AveTory (talk) 22:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
it doesn't have to influence her. its just an info which is commonly mentioned in bio articles. Gilgamesh (talk) 07:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I mentioned her Russian ancestry with a link to official documents. Speculative information about her Jewish roots is not documented and nothing in her bio points at it, even the names of her parents are 100% Slavic, not Jewish, thus I don't understand the purpose of adding more ancestries. AveTory (talk) 19:52, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We do have sources which mention her jewish ancestry. Thus, we should allow the readers a full access to the sources and they will decide by themselves which sources to they prefer. Gilgamesh (talk) 14:05, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We should not knowingly publish such highly questionable information on Wikipedia.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 14:58, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. Kazimir Malevich, for example, is called "Belarusian" or "Ukrainian" by modern Belarusian and Ukrainian press, and this led to local edit wars, yet the article still clearly states he was Polish because his ancestry is well-documented. This goes on, and on, and on for many prominent people, yet they don't have multiple ancestries on their pages just because "there are sources and readers should decide for themselves". AveTory (talk) 18:49, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

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Solomatin kill total

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The kill total listed here for Aleksey Solomatin does not match any of the figures given in Solomatin's own entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:4700:7D64:F935:EA9E:700:E4C1 (talk) 00:09, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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