Talk:Luther

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Luther. R'n'B (call me Russ) 19:03, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

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Luther (disambiguation) → Luther — Discussion at Talk:Luther#Do not redirect to Martin Luther agreed that searches for "Luther" should direct to the DAB page instead of to Martin Luther, and we even made the move to this page, but we were told that we first needed to move the DAB page to "Luther" (per WP:MALPLACED). So this request is to carry out a move that was already approved and carried out but that was reverted on a technicality. Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:02, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support; reverting the change to the redirect was silly and unnecessary, as this move discussion could have taken place just as easily without the reversion. Powers ^T 20:16, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support: Martin Luther is not the primary topic for Luther. –CWenger (^ • @) 23:22, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose Of course Martin Luther is the primary topic, I find it difficult to see what other meaning there is approaching him in notabiity. A recent British cop show is hardly in the same class. PatGallacher (talk) 00:11, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Notability is not the applicable metric; popularity is. Martin Luther must be the article most-sought by users looking for "Luther" -- more popular than all other possibilities combined. There's also the practical question of whether we should force people looking for articles listed under Luther (place) and Luther (surname) to click through three pages to get where they're going -- once from Luther to Luther (disambiguation) and then once again to the applicable subtopic, then once again to get to the actual article they want. Powers ^T 12:51, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Popularity alone is not exactly the metric either. There are many instances where the more popular title is not the base name. I think the simplest way to describe primary topic is the principle of least surprise -- page views or Google search results are indications of what people might expect to find at the title. Also, I've merged Luther (place) back into the disambiguation page as an incomplete disambiguation -- that list should not have been split out. older ≠ wiser 13:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
    • Google searches are tricky in cases like this, though, as a search for "Luther" will turn up a number of items that may never be called simply "Luther". Powers ^T 14:19, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support disambiguation makes sense. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 05:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Sory to be awkward, but this is one of these contributions you can get sometimes where one suspects that the person has not understood what he discussion is about. PatGallacher (talk) 10:03, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
    • How so? The proposal is to move the DAB page to "Luther", which then becomes the main page. Aristophanes68 (talk) 03:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Martin Luther is the primary topic. Softlavender (talk) 07:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Do we count the contributors in the previous, almost-unanimous discussion? Or do they have to re-state their agreement here? Aristophanes68 (talk) 03:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment:Good question! They do and they don't. Consensus can change so it's helpful if they do contribute here. But the closing admin will consider the arguments not just count "votes", so if you include a link to the previous discussion that will be considered. Unfortunately, we all have finite resources of time, so if nobody bothers to link to this previous discussion the closing admin probably won't look for it either (they may). No change of vote. Andrewa (talk) 20:56, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
    • I placed a link to the original in the RfC tag, but here it is again: Talk:Luther#Do not redirect to Martin Luther. Where else does it need to go? Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 21:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Martin Luther is clearly the primary topic here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support Martin Luther may very well be the most likely thing people were looking for, but that certainly does not translate into Martin Luther being overwhelmingly dominant in those searches. This is no different than Kennedy. While John F. Kennedy may be the most popular of all the things names Kennedy, it would be a disservice to the reader to assume this is what they where looking for. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 23:13, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Each of these names must be decided on their own merits. JFK is not the primary meaning of Kennedy, partly because of the sheer number of other people called Kennedy, and partly because this includes some people not much less important e.g. his 2 brothers and Charles Kennedy. By comparison, there are not very many alternative meanings of Luther and none of them are remotely approaching Martin. See Churchill where one person is the primary meaning. PatGallacher (talk) 13:32, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support per details in the previous move request. There is no primary topic for 'Luther'; there are sufficient other significant uses of the term on the current DAB page to justify its presence at 'Luther' without redirect. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:02, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I was the one who half-made the move on the last request, so my apologies for creating the technicality situation that has led to this being raised again. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:08, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support again. Martin Luther may well be highly notable, but his popularity among random wikipedia readers does not eclipse all other uses of the surname. bobrayner (talk) 08:01, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Martin Luther is the primary topic. Andrewa (talk) 11:56, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose, I know this isn't really the question, but Martin Luther is surely a primary topic for this term, by any conceivable standard. ((If there really is consensus that this isn't the case, then of course tidy up by moving the dab page, but I don't see what other meanings can possibly be felt to compete with one of the most famous men in European history.)--Kotniski (talk) 12:48, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. I had been on the fence on this, but Kotniski and PatGallacher are right -- the familiar surname of one of the most important figures in European history merits treatment similar to that of Churchill. older ≠ wiser 21:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support "Luther" is a rather commonly used name, for both first and last names and as a place name. Plus this is little more than technical cleanup of the status quo, as "Luther" already points to the disambiguation page. oknazevad (talk) 16:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
  • No it doesn't! It points to Martin Luther. PatGallacher (talk) 16:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
    • My bad. Still support based on my first reasoning. oknazevad (talk) 23:13, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Luther is a common surname; Martin Luther is not the primary topic. Quigley (talk) 01:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Per the consensus of the previous discussion, while Martin Luther might be the single most significant topic, it is not more significant than all the other uses combined (or even nearly so). There is thus no primary topic. Thryduulf (talk) 13:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support as per Thryduulf. While Martin Luther is apparently the most frequently referenced topic associated with this word, I tend to think that the number and importance of the other topics is such that it would be difficult to say that there is a single primary topic. John Carter (talk) 15:15, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Note

This discussion page could not be moved to Talk:Luther because of pre-existing discussion there. Any further discussion about the disambiguation page should take place at Talk:Luther. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 19:03, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

In order to reconnect this talk with the associated dab, I've moved the talk page about the redirect that was previously here to Redirect talk. Thryduulf (talk) 00:43, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Primary topic

I hope that I am in the correct place. I am here because I typed "luther" into wikipedia and was directed to a page with an array of geographical, institution and personal entries. I followed this to a talk page where , if I understand correctly, a debate has concluded that searches for Luther should be directed to this page with a list on the grounds that the significance of Martin Luther does not outweigh the combined significance of the colleges, individuals and towns named Luther. This seems to me fairly absurd, in large part because it does not consider the reason why there are towns and colleges named Luther. They are overwhelmingly named in honor of Martin Luther! As are the great majority of notable individuals who have born the given name Luther. Searches for Luther should be directed to the page on Martin Luther. then guided to this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WmTyndale (talk • contribs) 18:09, 7 March 2012 (UTC)