Talk:Ludwik Maurycy Landau

A fact from Ludwik Maurycy Landau appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 10 July 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that during World War II, Polish-Jewish economist Ludwik Maurycy Landau conducted undercover research into the economic conditions in occupied Poland?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/July. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Ludwik Maurycy Landau.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 12:50, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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... that, during World War II, Jewish-Polish economist Ludwik Maurycy Landau conducted undercover research into the economic conditions in occupied Poland? Source: https://www.jhi.pl/psj/Landau_Ludwik_Maurycy

Reviewed: The Biafra Story

5x expanded by Piotrus (talk). Self-nominated at 13:37, 5 May 2020 (UTC).[reply]

OK, I think this meets the criteria. It's new and long enough, seems neutral, but there are a few issues that need clarification. For example, "intelligentsia family" just isn't used in English, you could say middle-class family but I'm not sure that's what's meant. I have no idea what is meant by "social income" and it redirects to an unrelated org. Also, I'm not sure the article supports his research being "underground". AGF on the hook sourcing. b uidhe 23:07, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe: I don't believe I was pinged or notified about this reply; sorry for the delay in replying but can I ask you to ping me in the future if you want my reply? Also DYK review suggests leaving a talk page message if issues are present in an article as part of the regular process (Notify nominator with {{subst:DYKproblem|Ludwik Maurycy Landau|header=yes|sig=yes}}), which I highly recommend to following in the future to speed things up. Now, (1) intelligentsia family is pretty clear to me. The word intelligentsia is used in English, it may not be very common and is a loan word I think, but it is more specific than middle-class and correct (and sourced) for this context. (2) You are right that the term social income redirects to an unrelated NGO, but it is an economic term used by the reliable source ([1]). It is not an error as this term is used in economy ([2]), so it is just the problem with an improper redirect and Wikipedia possibly missing an article on this topic; I'll add it to my to-do list. (Also, note that the term used to be a redirect to Guaranteed minimum income) and was recently broken by a new editor [3]). For now I'll add a pipe to the article, but I am not convinced this redirect is correct. But the term "social income" is, again, correct in the context of Landau's work (per the reliable, verifiable source using it). (3) I am happy to discuss better wording, but he was doing some research while hiding (as a Jew) with presumed hope of being able to publish it after the war. I think it fits the common-sense definition of "underground research". I'll ping User:Nihil novi, my go to oracle for English use, and see if he has any language suggestions for this? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:35, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus, thanks for the fixes. I thought that "intelligentsia" is a noun in English. Anyway I can understand what it means but as a native speaker it sounds like a grammar error to me. You and I both know that it was underground research but since this is Wikipedia there has to be a verifiable source for it. b uidhe 04:41, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Buidhe I trust Nihil novi will shortly fix the sentence if it needs to read more nicely in English (maybe we need a possessive, intelligentsia's family? Or family of intelligentsia?). Regarding the underground research, I think it is not OR/SYNTH but just a paraphrase/use of summary style. Should we ask for a third opinion? Ping User:BlueMoonset: is it ok, should we reword it, what's your suggestion for this? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:46, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Intelligentsia", in the social structures of some countries, denotes the class of educated people or intellectuals. It is customary in Poland – where the term was coined in the 19th century, during the Partitions of Poland – in biographies to describe individuals as coming from, or belonging to, the intelligentsia, peasant, or worker classes. During World War II, both the occupying Germans and Soviets made it a point to eliminate or otherwise neutralize Poland's intelligentsia, as the social element most likely to organize opposition to them. "Intelligentsia" is a not unuseful sociological construct, which I would keep in the article. In English, the word is used in the same form as both noun and adjective.

Nihil novi (talk) 09:43, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article clearly states that Ludwik Maurycy Landau did research, writing, and teaching for the Polish underground state. Everything "underground" was, tautologically, "undercover".

Nihil novi (talk) 09:50, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging buidhe to comment on whether her concerns have been addressed. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:40, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that "intelligentsia" can be used as an adjectives. Oxford Dictionaries says it is just a noun [4]. b uidhe 14:04, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe: Google Books search for "intelligentsia family "shows hundreds of uses of this term, so I think we are fine. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe: Is this good to go now? If the only remaining issue is the wording "intelligentsia family", perhaps just change it to "a family that was part of the intelligentsia". The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 20:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind that change, through per sources cited it is clearly unnecessary. Oxford Dictionary is not the end-all oracle on real world English use. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:36, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus If Buidhe doesn't respond within 48 hours, ping me and I'll review this. It's not fair to you that a submission from early May should still be waiting for approval like this. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 05:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@The Squirrel Conspiracy: Thank you; I have had worse delays and I am in no hurry, but yes, ping User:Buidhe, a delay over such minor nitpicking is not particularly "best practices" or such. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I already stated my objection to the article and hook above. Personally, I am not convinced that the article supports "undercover research" as I stated above. If someone else wants to pass the hook, go ahead, but I don't think I can in good conscience. Anything that's going onto the main page should be fully verifiable. b uidhe 08:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I thought we already covered that issue before. In my opinion it is obvious the research was 'undercover', as he was doing while the sources clearly say he was in hiding. But ok, I'll be happy to take up User:The Squirrel Conspiracy on his offer, we can use a second opinion here on whether this is ready for promotion or not. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Approving hook. --evrik ^(talk) 04:06, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Social income

Ping User:Buidhe. Ok, so I did a bit more digging. The 1934 work was published in Polish [5]. Social income is a reasonable approximate translation of the Polish term "Dochód społeczny". I will try to find tome to investigate this further, and see if this term can be defined or if it is simply a synonym for "income in the society" or such (so, just income). PS. Reading a bit more about this term (ex. the use of it at pl wikisource it seems to have been invented by Kalecki and Landau in Polish and I can't find it clearly defined, I think they really meant it as a form of "society income", or something we would today understand as GDP or such. I'll ping User:Volunteer Marek, as I believe he has some experience with economics. PPS. Here's some definition in English: [6]. Here is something else and I see some suggestion this term might be used by a few Indian economics. But right now I am leaning to the view that Kalecki's social income=income and the term is not notable for a stand-alone article. PPPS. I'll also ping User:Prototime who created the initial redirec to Guaranteed minimum income. ([7])--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:07, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]