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It looks like an edit war is going on here. Why is there no discussion on this talk page? Please don't revert this article without putting an explanation here, preferably including a link to some external site which backs up your argument. I'd like to see some attempts at producing a compromise wording.-gadfium (talk) 03:20, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

== Lucas David Wikipedia article moved here due to constant vandalizing by Emax == http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:Emax [Contributions Emax http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&hideminor=0&namespace=&target=Emax&limit=5000&offset=0]

== Lucas David was a Prussian historian ==, who around 1550 wrote down extensive volumes on Prussian History.

Lucas David was born 1503 in Allenstein, Prussia in the Prince-Bishopric of Ermland. At first he held the position as chancelor of Prince Bishop Tiedemann Giese and later he was called to the Ducal Court in Königsberg. He became well known past the borders of his homeland for his Preußische Chronik (Prussian Chronicles). He is ranked as a 'modern' historian, who did his studies at the source. For poor Allenstein students he arranged stipends at the Leipzig University.

The Prussica-Sammlung Trunz started by another Allenstein native, Dr. August Trunz (1875-1963), contains works by Lucas David.

The dispute appears to me as a complete outsider to be one of nationalistic pride rather than any disagreement over the facts. The points of contention are:

  1. The city Lucas David was born in. I understand that Allenstein, Prussia and Olsztyn, Poland are the same place, and that the latter name is the correct one for the modern city. At the time David was born and worked, was the city referred to by both names according to one's loyalty, or was it at that point always called Allenstein? Would a suitable compromise be to say Lucas David was born 1503 in Allenstein, Prussia (now Olsztyn, Poland)...? In the final sentence, would Olsztyn be a more correct name to use, or should we also use both names?
  2. The name of the Prine-Bishipric. Again, was it called by both names in the 16th century? Would using both names be appropriate?


Olsztyn and Warmia were Polish at that time. Official languages of Poland were Polish and Latin (not German)--Emax 22:25, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)


  1. Should we call him a Prussian or a Polish historian? It appears that there is no disagreement that he wrote about Prussian history. Why don't the parties concerned here suggest a compromise solution?

Please comment on my attempts at a compromise.-gadfium (talk) 21:38, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please refer to the map in the article about Ducal Prussia. Prussia as a country originated in 1701 and Olsztyn was not part of it. Space Cadet 06:21, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please refer to factual maps of Prussia of the time of Lucas David. Space Cadet's enthusiasm (POV) for making maps of Ducal Prussia for wikipedia is recommendable, but shows his and other Polish fantasy, not facts. Please look for Allenstein (today Olsztyn in Polish) on

Map of Prussia: Allenstein map c 1550- 1650 http://wwwtest.library.ucla.edu/libraries/mgi/maps/blaeu/prvssia.jpg originally made by Caspar Henneberg and continued in use for over 100 years

Map of Prussia: Allenstein c 1598 http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/desbillons/atlas/seite71.html


The second map's description in French is very interesting. Especially the beginning: "Prussia belongs completely to Crown of Poland , except Duchy of Prussia..." Had you read it before posting these links?

These maps were obviously not supposed to present exact political borders - it is easily noticeable, that they define territory of Prussia in considerably different way, and the second one does not show borders of Ducal Prussia, despite such a body is clearly mentioned it in the text.

To Chris 73, that compromised is fine with me.

Is it for You, anon user aka kurfurst, so hard to understand that he was born in Poland?--Emax 04:34, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

To Space Cadet

in ref. to Lucas David Edit Summaries comments: Read User Emax Wikipedia Contributions: http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&hideminor=0&namespace=&target=Emax&limit=5000&offset=0

Emax uses "m" for almost all his entries - m M is used for Minor- Emax constantly disguises his substantial None-Minor changes and additions by labeling them as minor. He is only one of the people that just plaster wikipedia with Polish-anything. Why does he not work and stay at the Polish Wikipedia? This is supposed to be the English-language wikipedia.

Chris 73, as you can probably tell by now, for a long time there has been a large group of people, like User:Emax , who are determined to dictate and enforce only their ficticious fantasy version of == NPOV = Nonfactual Polish Opinion Version == They are not in the least bit deterred by facts and they will not let facts nore reason stand in their way. They oversaturate the supposedly English-language articles with all Polish words and names, which makes reading those articles almost impossible. Unfortunately compromise seems therefore very unlikely.

The history of locations and people of Prussia/Eastern Germany/Eastern Europe (since 1945 Western- and Northern-Poland) featured in Wikipedia article is thus very unreliable and untrustworthy.

Someone should correct the german version and the Norwegian one, which was translated (from wiki.de) by Wolfram :)--Emax 12:15, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of re-adding some information (who the duke was) that was lost in the most recent revert skirmish. I have also added some common names of places in German. I don't care about which one is linked or highlighted, but I do think that not giving them is less than helpful. These regions were successively under different rules, and places thus have different names at different times. Mentioning these different names (at least the common ones) should not be construed as denigrating any particular name or some such, nor as "inaccuracy". I think one should be able to find this article through a Google search not only for "David" and "Olsztyn", but also for "David" and "Allenstein". And, frankly said, I didn't know that Królewiec was the Polish name for the city I knew as Kaliningrad. Again, I think giving these names makes it easier for the reader to understand what places the article talks about. Lupo 09:44, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dispute

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There is an ongoing dispute and slow edit war about his nationality, and the nationality of his place of birth at the time of his birth (i.e. if Olsztyn/Allenstein was polish or german in 1503, and more so if Lucas David was polish or prussian). Hence i have added the disputed tag, hoping that the issue can be sorted out. Ideally, both views should be mentioned in the article. I will give it a try (again) -- Chris 73 Talk 11:37, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

Disputed by you and Helga Jonas (user HJ).--Emax 11:42, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)
In 1503 Olsztyn was part of Poland - take a book about Polish history in Your hands, and look up it. Would you also add a dispute tag in the article of New York if someone would claiming that the city is part of China?
Do you have any arguments (except Helga Jonas claimings?) chris 73? if not, remove the dispute tag.--Emax 21:38, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment

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Olsztyn/Allenstein was part of Warmia/Ermland, removed from the Teutonic Knights and placed under the sovereignty of the King of Poland in 1466. However, the influence was limited, and the King for example did not have the rights to name a bishop. Lucas David did not write in polish but in german, and I have not yet seen a reference that indicates that he wrote anything in polish. Hence the claim that he is polish is disputed. At a minimum, the dispute tag should stay. I have added a request to Wikipedia:Requests for comment -- Chris 73 Talk 01:19, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)


From reading through the history on the city's official website [1] [2] the City of Olsztyn was part of Poland from 1466 to 1772. As for what the "official" name of the city was when Lucas David was alive, it could have been either name. See
" The records speak of it as a town as early as in 1348, but it was five years later on October 31, 1353, that Allenstain was formally granted municipal rights....The location privilage issued by the Warmia Chapter said: "we wish this city to be called Allenstein". Thus the city took its name after the castle. The contemporary Polish name is nearly as old as the German original, because as early as in the end of 14th century the name was spelled Holstin, in 1448 the Polish historian Jan Długosz noted Olsztin, while the spelling Olstyn was used in Olsztyn itself in Copernicus times (1522). "
In reading the town's history, it suggests that at the time that Lucas David was born, most of the people in the area were probably still (ethnically?) Prussian, although about that time more Polish people started moving into the area.
So the answers seem to be: 1) Country of birth: Poland 2) ethnically: possibly (probably?) Prussian 3) City name: either Allenstein or Olstyn (depending upon what language was being spoken?). So unless anyone can find anything more definitive, the best thing may be to note what is definately known (born in Poland, in the Warmia Bishopric) and also note what is conjecture.
It is interesting that for historical figures, they mention Mikołaj Kopernik (Nicolaus Copernicus), Feliks Nowowiejski, Erich Mendelsohn, Maria Zientara - Malewska, Jan z Łajs, and Seweryn Pieniężny, but do not mention Lucas David.
BTW: Copernicus was the administrator of Olsztyn from 1516-1521, not long after Lucas David's birth. There is a letter making a pleas to the Polish King Sigismund I, dated on January 16, 1521 after the city had survived a siege by the Teutonic Knights. Copernicus apparently wrote in German, Polish and Latin.
If anyone knows German or Polish, they might check to see what our sister Wikipedias have written pl:Olsztyn and de:Olsztyn BlankVerse 12:02, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
From de:Olsztyn: Allenstein was part of Ermland, one of the four Diocese (founded 1245) of Prussia, and under direct control of the catholic church, and not reigned by the teutonic knights. During the first division of poland 1772 it became part of prussia. de:Ermland also adds that the bishops reigned since the beginning of the 15th century, under the souvereignity of the polish-lithuanian Jagiellonen-Wasa-Wettin kings. During the Protestant Reformation (16th century), the bisops defended Ermland, and the region recieved an exempt status and was governed by a Prince-Bishop.
So I would agree that (1) Country of birth: Poland, or maybe more precisely in Warmia Bishopric of Poland the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (2)Ethnicity: Prussian, (3) City name: Both, any order OK. I'll give it a try on the main page -- Chris 73 Talk 00:20, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
You mean Kingdom of Poland not PLC. And btw, you can forget the Poland-related articles from ger. wiki...--Emax 00:33, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
So what does the polish article say? BTW, i found two references online, but unfortunately all in german. Googling for "Lucas David" OR "David Lucas" OR "Lukas David" OR "David Lukas" 1503 -wikipedia gives among other unrelated references [3] (no nationality mentioned, but listed in "German Biography") and [4] (old encyclopedia entry, lists him as Prussian). I could not find any english references online. What are your references? -- Chris 73 Talk 00:43, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
All I found was a brief mention of him in English on a Lithuanian website where he was called a German historian. I don't remember what I used for my search string, although I remember one search was for "Lucas David" +Olsztyn BlankVerse 08:57, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Because he written the history of Prussia and Prussia is associated by the most people with Germany (the most people known only the history after the partitions of Poland)--Emax 13:53, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
Seems like an old German reference - not very trustfully (both links are the same) - its not easy to read it because of the old german capitals, but isnt there written that: "...1537-38 Mitglied des Senats fur die polnische Nation und ercheint noch als angehoriger der dortigen Universitat. Obgleich er schon fruh vieleich bevor er sein Vaterland verliess (Poland) zum protestantischen glaubes ubergetreten war... " ?--Emax 00:57, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
This Member of the senate seems to be a student group at the University of Leipzig. As for the Vaterland, this means Prussia. Quote: ...beschäftigte er sich eingehend mit dem Studium der Vaterländischen Geschichte... (he intensified his studies of the history of his fatherland), and the next sentences details this as Prussian history, and he also eventually wrote the Preussische Chronik (Prussian Chronic). It is pretty sure that the article refers to him as a Prussian, and leaving his fatherland refers to moving to Leipzig.
As a side note, I also found the following comments interesting: Schon Herzog Albrecht hatte, um den von Polnische in Katholischer Seite ausgehenden Darstellungen entgegenzuwirken, den Gedanken ergriffen, eine "gewisse, glaubwürdige, rechtsinninge Chronik des Landes Preussen" anschaffen zu lassen. (Even Herzog Albrecht was planning to arrange for a "solid, truthful and honest" history of Prussia to rectify the polish and catholic description of the events), and Auch die Stände des Landes, denen die polnischen Arbeiten "zur schmälerung dieser Lande Gerechtigkeit zu gereichen" schienen, nahmen sich dieser Sache [...] an (Also the different social classes, whom the polish works seem "to belittle this country" supported this work). Guess Wikipedia is not the first reference that has this problem with national POV. And, <sarcasm> oh, I am sure that Herzog Albrecht hired a polish guy to correct the history of prussia against polish POV </sarcasm>.
In any case, I am still waiting for your references, and it would be nice if you could also summarize the related polish Wiki articles for this discussion, just for comparison. -- Chris 73 Talk 04:14, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
Seems that the german reference is the only one on the internet (i cant found some English or Polish). As i already said the old german reference (which is btw not very trustfully but..) said that:
He was in the Senate for the Polish nation and that befor he leave his fatherland (Poland). he become protestant. - I dont know what kind of Senate the reference mean (but student groups were not called Senates) He was born in Poland, so his fatherland was Poland.
If Helmut Kohl would leave Germany after he ending his career as politician in Germany, and move to Spain and starting there a career as a journalist, someone could claiming that:
"Helmut Kohl (b xxxx in xxxx) was a Spanish journalist and politician. He was deputy for the bundestag and chancellor for the German nation, than leave his fatherland and became journalist in Spain..."
Someone who is born in the USA and was member of the american Senate, even if he go to Irak and starting to fight aginst the USA is still an American.--Emax 13:53, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
What kind of ethnicity his forfathers had is irrelevant. Condoleezza Rice is an American politician and not a Nigerian one or some other African. Dirk Nowitzki is a German basketball player, not Polish. If you look on the French national soccer team, the most players are not "looking" very French - but they are French.
There is even no evidence that Lucas David forfathers were Germans, they could've been be Poles, or Scots, Austrians, Italians, Lithuanians, Sweds etc. --Emax 14:10, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
Isn't there one of the big German encyclopedias that has some old editions in the public domain? Do they have anything to say about Lucas David? And are there any German encyclopedias that are online (doesn't Microsoft have a bunch of different versions of Encarta in different languages?)? And what about Polish references? Are there any old public domain encyclopedias, or modern encyclopedias that are online? BlankVerse 08:57, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

== Meyers Enzyklopädisches Lexikon 1972 Lucas David ==, dt. Historiker -short for: deutscher Historiker (German historian)

References

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  • Lucas David, Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie, Leipzig, 1875 (in German)
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