Talk:Louis Edward Curdes/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: 98.97.46.82 (talk · contribs) 23:30, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk · contribs) 03:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I fixed the wording of those sentences. Also unless it is GA criteria to define a flying ace in the article itself, I don't really feel it to be necessary. Flying ace is blue linked so all a reader on PC needs to do is hover the mouse over the blue link and they can read a short description without going to a separate article. A phone user could just tap the blue link, read what a flying ace is and then return to this article. I'm open to changing it to meet GA criteria, but this way makes sense to me. 98.97.46.82 (talk) 01:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I reworded the "After the war" and "Death and legacy" sections. They actually read a lot better now, but what parts more specifically of the "North Africa and Italy" section need to be reworded? 98.97.46.82 (talk) 03:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The North Africa and Italy section wasn't that bad, and I think it can be left as is. As for the GA criteria, part of the criteria is that the article is understandable to an appropriately broad audience, which is talked about in Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable. A lot of people only really read the lead of an article, so it's especially important to make sure your lead is understandable to a broad audience (although ideally your entire article should be). For this reason, it is quite common for articles to explain certain terminology that the average reader may not be familiar with. "Flying ace" is one of those terms. While people familiar with military terminology probably know what a flying ace is, those who aren't may not be. While linking terms is helpful, the less a reader has to stop and lookup the meaning of a term, the better. Additionally, we want articles to be accessible to a broad audience. If someone well versed in military terminology reads the page, they can simply skip over the explanation. However, if someone less familiar with terminology doesn't have to go lookup a term, then the more engaged they are with an article. Seeing as you fixed the major issues with the article I will continue with the review within the next 2-3 days. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 04:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. I will work on that and the unreliable source issue tomorrow. It shouldn't take too long. And thank you for the quick reply. 98.97.46.82 (talk) 05:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good! Thank you for being receptive to my criticism as I know it can be a lot at once. I look forward to reviewing this page! CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 08:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Awards and decorations:

The Don Hollway source has a picture of Curdes in uniform with the Command Pilot Badge. It is partially covered by his uniform above his ribbons. Also Curdes meets the basic requirement to be awarded the badge according to info here U.S. Air Force aeronautical rating.

Curdes just barely meets requirements for the American Defense Service Medal. Also he is wearing the ribbon for this medal in images from the Don Hollway source as well other sources using the same image.

The Asiatic–Pacific Campaign Medal with 1 silver service star is also sourced from images of Curdes in uniform. Also although he arrived late in the Pacific Theater there were still plenty of campaigns from August 1944 until the end of the war for him to have participated in.

When I was doing a lot of the research for this article, I found that some sources disagreed on how many of which medals he was awarded. I'm not sure why that is so I more often went with sources that had images of Curdes in uniform which displayed his ribbons. The European–African–Middle Eastern Campaign Medal was one such medal, and as with the previous medal above, it too had many campaigns to participate in.

The National Defense Service Medal is also on Curdes uniform although the picture is from 1960. The NDSM was awarded during different periods of war and can be awarded multiple times, but not more than four times currently. Curdes served during two different time periods that the NDSM was awarded so he qualified for another award of the NDSM. I actually missed this in my research somehow and it was added to the article by some random user.

The Philippine Liberation Medal can be seen with two bronze service stars on Curdes wedding photo in the Don Hollway source. He also meets at least two of the medal's criteria. 98.97.46.82 (talk) 03:33, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good thank you for clarifying that for me. I'm not familiar with military things so I'm going to trust you on this one (though everything you said seems plausible and in line with what I've read thus far). One thing I would like to mention is the lead of this article. While there isn't technically a requirement for GA leads they should be high quality. Ideally, the lead of the article summarizes what is said in the body. Because the lead typically uses content from the body it does not need citations (that is unless you are adding information not in the rest of the article). I dug up some examples of GA about military people that I feel reflect this if you want to check those out. José de San Martín - gives basic info about the topic, summarizes his time in the military, and then ends off by talking about his legacy. David M. Shoup - again gives us some basic info, talks a bit about his background, and talks about his political views. Walter Oesau - a little on the shorter side but does a good job of summarizing the rest of the article in a straightforward way. Vojislav Lukačević - this one mostly talks about his life events but I felt it does a great job of summarizing things. James MacLachlan - a little on the longer side but wanted to include it due to the amount of detail. Romualdas Marcinkus - Again a well-written summary. I would love to see the current lead edited to reflect this level of quality. Around 4 paragraphs is ideal but really I'm just looking for a good overview of the subject including basic information (date of birth, what he's known for etc), a bit about his experience in the military (this is where you want to highlight what he's really known for as well as any significant opinions he held or important missions he was a part of), and a bit about his legacy (awards, his death if that is considered relevant, and anything else that is notable). CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 04:29, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok. I will work on that later today. 98.97.46.82 (talk) 13:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I see that you have improved the lead quite significantly, good job! If you are using notes they need to be referanced, however I do feel that the notes you added to the lead are a bit off topic and should be removed. There is a couple citations left in the lead that you could remove but this is up to you. I'll continue with the rest of my review now. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 05:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't worked on the article recently. I have been busy lately. I should have some time tomorrow to work on it. 98.97.40.91 (talk) 05:32, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I have removed the notes from the lead. Also, the info about Curdes' wife and her step-father are from images in the Don Hollway source. 98.97.40.91 (talk) 05:54, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I see, I didn't realize there was more than one image on that page. I'll continue with my review now! IntentionallyDense (talk) 06:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The citations in the lead and the unreliable source have all been removed. 98.97.34.56 (talk) 21:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	"American flying ace" In order for this to be understandable to a broad audience flying ace should be defined.  Done "helped Art Smith with getting his aircraft airborne" This wording is awkward. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC) "Curdes grew up having an interest in aviation and would later drop out of college to join the military to become a pilot on the 6 of December 1941, the day before the Attack on Pearl Harbor." This sentence is a bit long. I would try to separate it somehow. IntentionallyDense (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC) "He escaped captivity twice and was recaptured twice and later spent about nine months in the enemy-held central Apennine Mountains after his prison guards abandoned their posts." This sentence is confusing. Did he escape cause prison guards abandoned their posts? Was that the first or second time? IntentionallyDense (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC) "Curdes eventually returned home and then went back to combat, this time it would be late in the war in the Pacific theater where he would shoot down only two aircraft before the end of the war." This sentence is again a bit too long. IntentionallyDense (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC) "After the war, Curdes flew Douglas C-54 Skymasters in a transport unit during the Berlin Airlift and not long after he was essential in creating an Indiana Air National Guard unit, which in 1946 was federally recognized and is still active today." Run on sentence. IntentionallyDense (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC) "Louis Edward Curdes was born on the 2 of November 1919" It would make more sense to either but "born on the 2nd of November" or "born November 2, 1919". IntentionallyDense (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC) "On his first mission on the 23 of March 1943, he engaged multiple Messerschmitt Bf 109s of the Jagdgeschwader 27 and was able to shoot down three and damaged a fourth near Cape Bon, Tunisia." The "On his first mission on the 23 of March 1943" part sounds awkward. IntentionallyDense (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Based off the size of this article the lede could be expanded substantially and you could also use content from the body of the article so that there is less citations in the lede. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)  Done IntentionallyDense (talk) 14:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 03:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	ref 6 [1] isn't a very reliable source and I would replace this if possible. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)  Done IntentionallyDense (talk) 14:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC) Currently doing a source review and will update as I go. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 00:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC) Early life: Able to access and verify all sources. No plagiarism issues. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 00:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC) World War II: refs 4 and 5 in the first paragraph seem to be useless? maybe I'm missing something here but it seems like all your information is verified by sources 1 and 6 so I don't really understand why you put refs 4 and 5 in the middle of the paragraph. IntentionallyDense (talk) 14:52, 10 September 2024 (UTC) I'm going to give you some time to check over your sources and fix this issue as it comes up a few times. In the meantime I will get started with a prose review. IntentionallyDense (talk) 14:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC) After the war: Passed IntentionallyDense (talk) 14:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC) "After World War II, Curdes met Svetlana Valeria Shostakovich Brownell in Los Angles, California on a blind date and they later married in Allen County, Indiana, on the 13 of April 1946." Neither sources verify that they got married in Allen County or the date in which they got married. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 05:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC) "After they honeymooned in Cuba and Florida, they settled down in Fort Wayne, Indiana." Not supported by source. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 05:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC) It would be helpful if you put the refs after the text they were used for instead of clustering them at the end but this doesn't disclude you from GA status. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 05:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC) "Svetlana was born in Harbin, Manchuria on the 23 of May 1925 to Russian parents and is the niece of Dmitri Shostakovich, a Soviet composer and pianist." Sources don't support the exact birthdate. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 05:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC) refs 5 and 3 should be moved to the end of the sentence "Jerome Brownell died not long later in June of 1932 of a septic soar throat and his remains were later sent home on the USS Wilson" as they don't support the following sentence. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 05:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC) "On the 1 of September 1951, Curdes was promoted to the rank of Major and 12 years later, in October 1963, he retired from the Air Force as a Lieutenant Colonel. After his retirement, he founded a construction company called Curdes Builders Company." ref 1 doesn't support this. It does support some of the information but not the specific dates. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 05:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC) Death and legacy: Was not able to access refs 14 and 15 however everything else was verified. No plagiarism issues. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC) Awards and decorations: I think this may be my lack of knowledge on the topic but none of the articles linked say he had the Command Pilot Badge. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC) The Wikipedia page lists an award called "American Defense Service Medal" However the sources provided only mention "National Defense Service Medal". CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC) The sources provided also do not support "Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal with 1 silver service star" (This ref [2] states he has the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal but not the silver service star). CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC) The Wikipedia article states "European–African–Middle Eastern Campaign Medal with 4 bronze service stars" however this ref [3] states that he only had 3 bronze stars. I believe this may be a typo but wanted to double check first. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC) "National Defense Service Medal with 1 bronze service star" Sources do not support the bronze service star part. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC) "Philippine Liberation Medal with 2 bronze service stars" Sources do not support the 2 bronze service stars part. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC) Just based off some of the spot checks I did a lot of the times you cited the more unreliable website, your other sources backed up the info. I would encourage you to go back and check all of the times you used that source and see if you can get rid of some of the times you cited it. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)  Done IntentionallyDense (talk) 14:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	There is close paraphrasing between this article ref 4 [4], as seen here [5]. The following sections need to be significantly reworded: North Africa and Italy: Last two paragraphs After the war: First and last paragraphs. Death and legacy: First paragraph. This was just found from a quick copyvio search.CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 03:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)  Done CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 00:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	"Curdes joined the 329th Fighter Group in Glendale, California and then spent a month at Naval Air Station North Island in San Diego. After that, he was sent to Edwards Air Force Base and then back to Santa Ana. In March, he was sent overseas, but on the 17 of April, was transferred to the 82nd Fighter Group, 95th Fighter Squadron, where he saw action in North Africa, Sardinia and Italy, flying a Lockheed P-38 Lightning (the production number for his aircraft was: #42-12832)." Can you find dates for some of this? Or at least the years? IntentionallyDense (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	"The other two pilots were Lt. Col. Carl Payne and Maj. Gen. Levi R. Chase." This seems off-topic for the lead. IntentionallyDense (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC) "the production number for his aircraft was: #42-12832" Seems off-topic to me. IntentionallyDense (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 03:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Great use of images! CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 00:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
	7. Overall assessment.	On hold until the nominator can address the issues with close paraphrasing and unreliable sources. If these issues are fixed I will happily continue this review.CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC) On hold until the nominator can address the issues with sourcing and expand the lead. Once that issue is dealt with I will continue my review. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC) Currently doing source reviews and then I will do an in-depth prose review. Please comment below this as the text above is getting too small to read. IntentionallyDense (talk) 14:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC) I am failing this nomination for a number of reasons. First of all and most importantly, the references are done in a way that makes it incredibly hard to verify information. There was many times when I would come across sources listed after a sentence they didn't support or cases like this: "info supported by ref1. info supported by ref 2. info supported by ref 1. info supported by ref 3." and then all 3 refs would be bundled together when they really should have been after the information they supported. There was also a 29-page document used without page numbers which I would argue is too big of a page range to go without specific page numbers being referenced. My second issue is the delay in responses and how back and forth this review has become. On the 26th of August, I raised issues with the lead, I went into more depth on my issues with the lead and even gave examples to improve on the 28th. Yet these issues weren't fixed till the 8th of September. I don't feel it should have taken more than a day to fix these issues. While I understand people have lives outside of Wikipedia, GAN are expected to be treated with a bit more urgency than what was displayed. Finally, the prose is very hard to read. Within just the lead I identified 5 run-on or awkwardly phrased sentences. While this wouldn't usually cause me to fail an article this combined with how long it has taken the nominator to respond to past issues makes me wary of moving forward. Overall this is a good article. It's clear people have put a lot of time into this and I don't want to overlook that. The nominator has been very accepting of feedback which I appreciate, I just feel like this article is a ways away from meeting GAC. In the future, I would like to see the references improved and some significant copyediting. IntentionallyDense (talk) 22:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.