Talk:Lord Haw-Haw

Dates

The dates are kind of mysterious. The show is supposed to have gone on the air in September 1939, gained six million listeners, and then had the announcer replaced in 1939. That seems fast... --Andrew 17:26, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

Also, how come the number of listeners is known? Halibutt 07:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Good point. They're obviously talking about the potential size of the audience. Valetude (talk) 22:59, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

References

WILLIAM JOYCE, alias LORD HAW-HAW, by Alex Softly is fairly extensive and looks well-researched, but I haven't examined it in detail. Anyone have any thoughts?

IMHO they shd certainly be merged. Johnbibby 19:09, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

As stated in this article and the one on the other bloke, it does look like Lord Haw-Haw was at least 2 people. I see no reason to merge it in that case. --Stalfur 14:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC) I agree with Stalfur. It would be confusing to merge a role played by more than one individual with the biography of only one of those individuals. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 18:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Merge the articles

I have never heard, anywhere, of anybody calling anyone other than William Joyce "Lord Haw-Haw". Wikipedia is the only authority I've ever seen that suggests people other than Joyce were referred to as "Lord Haw-Haw". Read the article on Baillie-Stewart; it uses the weasel words "Some suspect" when saying that Baillie-Stewart was the inspiration for the nickname. In any case, Joyce was flying solo as Lord Haw-Haw after December 1939--IOW, for almost the entire war--and whenever people say "Lord Haw-Haw" they are talking about William Joyce. Merge the articles. If necessary, include a disclaimer that Baillie-Stewart also participated in Nazi broadcasts for the first three months of the war. We should also edit out the comment about "various announcers" unless there's a source saying British citizens other than Baillie-Stewart and Joyce ever participated in Nazi wartime broadcasts. Vidor 04:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have seen mention of this elsewhere. I think I first saw this issue raised in the "Radio Times" oddly enough. This may need further research. PatGallacher 10:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I can find you several reliable sources that will tell you that the name "Lord Haw-Haw" was originally applied to someone other than William Joyce. Personally I would prefer that the two were not merged, otherwise the biogaphy of Joyce will have to have a lot of information about other people with whom he was not strongly connected. David | Talk 16:09, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, just realised that the following fact becomes particularly important: that Jonah Barrington's remark "he speaks english of the 'Haw Haw, dammit get-out-of-my-way' variety" was in the Daily Express of September 14, 1939 (and therefore must have been written on September 13; and William Joyce was not employed by German radio until September 19. David | Talk 23:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, then maybe it's just 98% of the time that people mean "William Joyce" when they say "Lord Haw-Haw." I still say, merge the articles. Joyce certainly did the vast majority of the Haw-Haw broadcasts, if he didn't do them all. He has been associated with Lord Haw-Haw for sixty-six years. Merge the articles: put the info about Haw-Haw in the Joyce article, and throw in a sentence about how other people made a few of the Haw-Haw broadcasts. Seriously, folks. Haw-Haw=William Joyce. The article is redundant. Vidor 03:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Extended extract on coining and identification of Haw Haw

"Amongst the listeners to 'Germany Calling' were a number of newspaper columnists. On 14 September 1939 'Jonah Barrington' (a pseudonym) of the Daily Express wrote: 'A gent I'd like to meet is moaning periodically from Zeesen [the site of the English service transmitter]. He speaks English of the haw-haw, damit-get-out-of-my-way variety, and his strong suit is gentlemanly indignation.' On 18 September Barrington wrote for the first time about 'Lord Haw-Haw'. The butt of his humour was not, then, William Joyce, who spoke standard English with a slightly nasal accent, but Baillie-Stewart, the Sandhurst-educated 'officer and gentleman'. Nevertheless there was much speculation in Britain about the identity of the broadcaster, who certainly appeared to be of British origin. Other journalists took up Barrington's nickname and one, Lord Donegal, who wrote a column for the Sunday Dispatch, made an earnest endeavour to identify him. Donegal had heard it suggested that a likely candidate was the founder of the National Socialist League, who appeared to have left the country; he visited Joyce's former partner MacNab in order to find out. MacNab agreed that he would listen to the broadcasts and 'tell him no lies'. When they met, they listened together to 'Germany Calling' on an unearthed short-wave radio and MacNab could quite clearly hear Joyce reading the news through the static; before he could comment, however, Donegal said 'That's not the man I'm talking about', and invited MacNab to visit his country house where reception was better. The next day they listened to Baillie-Stewart's clipped tones and Donegal aked if it was William Joyce. MacNab, quite truthfully, replied it was not." — Adrian Weale, "Renegades: Hitler's Englishmen", Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1984, p. 32-33.

"How he achieved the nickname of 'Lord Haw-Haw' I do not pretend to know, for there was nothing particularly dandyfied about his accent, though he was addicted to polysyllables. Possibly in the early days of his career on the German radio he was confused by British listeners with some other of his fellows, perhaps Baillie-Stewart ..." — C.E. Bechhofer Roberts (ed.), "The Trial of William Joyce" (Old Bailey Trials Series), Jarrolds, 1946, p. 9.

"As early as 14 September 1939, Jonas [sic] Barrington in the Daily Express described this voice that called from Germany, though in the first instance it probably belonged to Baillie-Stewart" — Francis Selwyn, "Hitler's Englishman", Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1987, p. 91.

Provided as a public service. David | Talk 08:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

nickname vs Pseudonym

I've reverted the recent change to pseudonym. It implies an authorized use by the person themselves, which is not correct in this situation. A nickname is given by someone else, as in this case, and is not necessarily affectionate; WP's own definition of nickname indicates that derogatory use as an option. JXM 01:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

All about the name

This article only talks about how Lord Haw-Haw was named and the accents of the people who had the name. How about some information on what he did that was notable. Maybe something on the content of the broadcasts would be useful if anyone knows anything about this?

The best place to go for that is the Wikiquote page on William Joyce. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 21:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Reciprocal

The final section mentions propaganda casters acting against UKUSA in several wars. What about links to some casters working for the UK or the USA or Soviet Union or China...?

Omniscience

The article says he was executed due to his "feared omniscience". The link for that word goes to the article on a supreme being's omniscience. As I doubt that people executed him as they believed him to be God the use of omniscience should be clarified! Does the author mean that Haw-Haw "knew too much" and if so too much of what? Who feared he knew too much? The war crimes trials were looking for people in the know. s-slaytor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.80.110 (talk) 13:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Omniscience is probably referring to that (what we would now call 'urban legend') effect of Lord Haw Haw, Tokyo Rose, and others where people of the time will swear under oath that they heard Haw-Haw refer to a specific military unit or a specific military incident like a bombing as if he was there or had insider information about it. US Marine veterans will swear to this day that Tokyo Rose taunted particular military units and even named individual commanders and marines in her shows. This omniscience grew to such a state (fueled by the allies own rumormongering and mythopoeia) that after the war when Haw-Haw and Tokyo Rose were captured, part of the charges included such supposed incidents. Frankly, people who listened to Lord Haw-Haw and Tokyo Rose all day got paranoid and scared shitless, so it became part of the reason that Lord Haw-Haw had to hang. Yanqui9 (talk) 00:23, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Sefton Delmer's memoirs of his work on British "black radio" said that broadcasts to German U-Boats would offer congratulations on individual crew-members' birthdays and anniversaries in order to freak them out and let them think that the British knew everything about their supposedly secret voyage, mission and location. —— Shakescene (talk) 00:38, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Joyce was executed because he held the status of being a British subject while he was willingly working for an enemy of The Crown, i.e., for "The King's Enemies". This meant he was committing treason under English law.

After high treason, treason is one of the most serious offences possible under English law.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.56 (talk) 11:36, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

P.G. Wodehouse discrepancy

In this article, in the notes section, it claims that Wodehouse broadcast under protest. However, in the P. G. Wodehouse article, it claims he did it under his own free will. Neither claims are referenced although there is a reference on the Wodehouse page that states Wodehouse "was naive and foolish, but not a traitor". Does anyone know a citable source that can clarify his stance further as to coerced or otherwise? I will be posting a similar comment on the Wodehouse talk page. StephenBuxton (talk) 12:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I have started the thread on the other article. As that talk page gets more traffic, I would suggest that anyone wanting to make a comment does so at Talk:P. G. Wodehouse#P.G. Wodehouse discrepancy. StephenBuxton (talk) 12:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Remember that America was still neutral at the time of these broadcasts. Valetude (talk) 22:56, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Far from 'neutral" - Roosevelt's administration had lobbied Congress to give all aid short of war to Britain - which it did. HammerFilmFan (talk) 22:52, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Wodehouse was interviewed in an official capacity after the war by Eric Blair who concluded that Wodehouse had been a bit naive in his dealing with the German occupiers, but was not in any way culpable. Wodehouse was, after all, stuck in a country that the Germans had occupied, and which he was not able to leave.

" ...had lobbied Congress to give all aid short of war to Britain ..." - they didn't give it , Britain had to pay for it, at least until Lend-Lease.

... and yes, it was that Eric Blair.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.172.141 (talk) 09:59, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Broken links

The links to the Imperial War Museum files now lead to other places on the IWM site. I could try to do my own search for the correct ones, but if the editor who originally provided those links is still around, he or she would better know what to look for and how to find them.

Also, the EarthStation1 links are good but the free samples (hidden under little white transmitter icons) give only the sign-on (in .WAV format) and sign-off (in .MP3). I think you have to pay EarthStation1 to get the actual substance of a broadcast. Although Wikipedia doesn't like linking to paid sites, I suppose this is no worse than giving the title of a commercially-sold book, but the reader should probably be warned. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

William Joyce was living in Dulwich, South London prior to the War, and was active in the Conservative Party as well as the Right Club —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.148.11 (talk) 13:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

James Thomas Brudenell

I have added a {{cn}} request for James Thomas Brudenell being an earlier holder of this nickname. War correspondent William Howard Russell notes that this was a characteristic of Brudenell's speech, but I haven't found anyone who calls it specifically a 'nickname'. --Old Moonraker (talk) 10:59, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually I have, but it's in some fictional works, postdating Joyce, etc., and therefore not counting. George MacDonald Fraser is the author in question. Now we've got that cleared up, I'm intending to remove the attribution in the text, subject to any other views. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:20, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, no defenders—deleted as fiction. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Fraser often did base his novels on serious historical research, so he could have had authority for this comment, but I agree we need a proper citation for this. PatGallacher (talk) 20:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This seems to be a not-uncommon misperception so I've added a mention in pop culture section, and a "see" reference in the "Origins" section. If somebody digs up evidence we can always put it back in. Bookgrrl ^holler/lookee here 18:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

So now we need someone to write an article about the "Germany Calling" program

OK, so we have a entry about the radio personality/stage name Lord Haw-Haw. There is still the need for some expert in the subject to write an entry about the "Germany Calling" radio program. There was more to the radio program than the Lord Haw-Haw character. {71.22.47.232 (talk) 10:44, 18 September 2011 (UTC)}

Though not being an expert on that matter, i now created an entry/a stub on "Germany Calling" (even though there was not much more to Germany Calling besides "Lord Haw-Haw" and the usual propaganda). Still some adjustment needed on the article "Lord Haw-Haw" now. I'll look into this later. Mottengott (talk) 00:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Sourcing from "Information Britain"

A recent addition suggests that the "Haw Haw" nickname was taken from James Brudenell, 7th Earl of Cardigan, but Cardigan wasn't called that (although he did use the phrase). This actually comes from George MacDonald Fraser's 1973 novel Flashman at the Charge (more above). The new entry is cited to Information Britain, a hotel booking page, which seems far from a WP:RS. I propose a revert. Tagged, pending implementation. --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm the one who added this. This is actually why I thought it ought to be mentioned. So many details (even some incredible ones!) in the Flashman series are in fact true that many people might assume this tidbit is. (The Flashman series is so historically accurate, in fact, that when the first novel came out a number of reviewers thought that it was an actual memoir!) But I see your point, so I've moved it to the "In popular culture" section -- that addresses the nickname's existence in the Fraser book while making clear that it isn't historically accurate. (And it might prevent future people from adding it back in elsewhere.) Does that work? Bookgrrl ^holler/lookee here 18:37, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

That's a fix, thanks. --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:06, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Popular culture reference, Kurt Vonnegut's Mother Night

Kurt Vonnegut's 1961 novel Mother Night's lead character Howard W. Campbell Jr. is loosely based on "Lord Haw-Haw." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.13.197.219 (talk) 16:09, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Introduction contains opinion, not fact

"propaganda broadcasts that opened with "Jairmany calling, Jairmany calling", spoken in an unintentionally comic upper-class accent." - comedy is subjective, but if it was not intended to be funny, who says it is? And it was "Germany", however inflected. Let's have some accuracy, please, and less opinion. 2.31.162.3 (talk) 01:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

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Merger proposal

A proposal has been made that Lord Haw-Haw and William Joyce be merged. A merger discussion wasn't started, so I have done so at Talk:William_Joyce#Merger_proposal. Please keep the discussion centralized there. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

William Joyce's place of birth

My mother knew the Joyce family in Dulwich. She was at school with his sister Eileen. She told me that William was born in Ireland. "He was buried in Ireland where he'd been born. They left there to go to America first." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.222.101 (talk) 19:32, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

The article on William Joyce states, with a link to a reliable source, that Joyce was born in New York. "My mother" is not a reliable source, and cannot be used to challenge this. RolandR (talk) 21:55, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Germany calling

According to this page, the "first broadcast on the Germany Calling English language service" was "a week before the United Kingdom declared war on Germany":

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Norman_Baillie-Stewart#German_collaboration

--JFCochin (talk) 13:47, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Capture, trial and death

It would be most helpful to add how Lord Haw Haw was captured. It would make sense to include these details and the page only refers to the intent of the broadcast. Some background on his life in Ireland and America should also be included. 85.210.121.55 (talk) 00:08, 18 January 2023 (UTC)