Talk:Live! Blueswailing July '64

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BetacommandBot 03:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Long-term disruptive editor

Various Yardbirds and Eric Clapton articles have been the subject of long-term WP:Disruptive editing by an IP using various 93.41.*, 93.42.*, and other addresses (see The Yardbirds discography 24 December 2009 – 9 March 2014[1]; Eric Clapton 20 February 2014[2] – present[3]). Although some edits are harmless, many ignore basic WP policies and guidelines on original research and verifiability. In some articles, the IPs have repeatedly changed dates, chart position numbers, etc. without any justification, references, or explanations. They do not use reliable sources, provide edit summaries, or engage in discussion, even when requested to do so.

With these February 2017 edits, the IP is attempting to change the running times, which have been taken (and referenced) from the original CD release. As noted in the article "Other releases may have different listings"; AllMusic does not indicate which release it is referring to (there are several reissues, including bootlegs). Added an external link to Live! Blueswailing July '64 at Discogs (list of releases), so readers can see the different release. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:46, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As has been pointed out several times in edit summaries (and directly above) and in the "Track listing" section: "OTHER RELEASES MAY HAVE DIFFERENT LISTINGS". We can't change the details every time a new reissue comes out (AM, youtube, etc., don't indicate which they are using). As stated in the article, "Songwriters and track running times are taken from the ORIGINAL CASTLE/SANCTUARY CD" (emphasis added); see the liner notes here.[4] Various IPs have been attempting to change this for years, open an RfC if you want. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:05, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In order to request dispute resolution, "The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN." Similarly, third opinion requests require "Before making a request here, be sure that the issue has been thoroughly discussed on the article talk page." However, none of the IPs involved in the track listing dispute have discussed the issue on this or other relevant talk pages. Those involved include:

If there is no willingness to civilly discuss the issues, other options will pursued, such as WP:ANI. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why on this Wikipedia encyclopedia just because you are not a registered user you are constantly belittled and treated badly especially when you notice an error as in the case of the album The Yardbirds Live! Blueswailing July '64 containing both the single and overall duration of the tracks. Since I have the CD in question of Castle/Sanctuary, I know very well that the duration of the tracks is wrong and that the album lasts 31:19 confirmed by many links:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/release/live%21-blueswailing-july-64-mr0001164055 https://savonasound.it/blues-sound/25535285-the-yardbirds-live-blueswailing-july-64-download-free.html

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/yardbirds/live-blueswailing-july-64/

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/yardbirds/live-blueswailing-july-64-4/

https://www.muziekweb.nl/en/Link/JK120735/Live%21-blueswailing-july-64

https://www.musik-sammler.de/release/the-yardbirds-live-blueswailing-july-64-cd-1172840/

—82.56.223.15 (talk) 23:54, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, we are starting to talk. I will address your points. Hold off on further edits until I have a chance to respond tomorrow, OK? —Ojorojo (talk) 23:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Although the mistake is obvious, I'm no longer interested in competing with someone who says lies, I'm that Live album! Blueswailing July '64 by Castle/Sanctuary I really own at home in my collection, and everyone who has that album knows very well that the duration of the songs is wrong and the album in question lasts 31:19 if someone were to ask me to show it to him I'm available so I make him look good, I repeat the duration of the track is wrong —82.56.223.15 (talk) 10:38, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What you fail to understand is that there are multiple releases ("editions") of the album, including several by Castle. Just because one is different than another, it doesn't mean that one is correct and the other is wrong. All your links (mostly user-generated websites) show is that there are different editions (note that they list different ID numbers) and none of them actually show the liner notes with the track times. The edition with the liner notes that list the times (linked above) is one that is used for the article. AllMusic, retail and download sites, usually get their release details from data sweeps with little or no editorial oversight; often, the latest or most promoted edition is the one that is used and shows up on site after site. That is one reason why these are not considered reliable sources. AlMusic is considered reliable for its professional reviews, but the details are sometimes wrong: note that its "Album information" section includes a "Submit Corrections", in which any user may submit their own "Tracks (with composers and times)".

I asked that you hold off on further article edits until I had the chance to address your points. But you re-added the info again, including the unofficial youtube link, which is specifically advised against by WP:SONG#Lyrics and music videos and capitalizing "The Yardbirds" mid-sentence, contrary to MOS:THEMUSIC. This, your statements, and making false accusations do not show that you are interested in working collaboratively or trying to achieve a consensus, which is a core WP policy. There is nothing against IP users who add useful information. But some are evading blocks or are sockpuppets. Didn't you edit at one time with the user name 'Undertaker" or something similar?

—Ojorojo (talk) 15:11, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You're wrong, I didn't change any Undertaker name and then I don't know all the IP addresses you mentioned, I noticed that wrapped it can happen that an IP address used by someone after a while is automatically addressed to me and vice versa, regarding the album in question "Live! Blueswailing July '64" absolutely does not exist that other editions have a different duration on the album, it can only happen in the liner notes inside the Castle / Sanctuary cd that are actually wrong, but everyone and I say all the albums and CDs on the market when you put them in a stereo CD or a vinyl turntable the total duration is always 31:19 In the CD player so I show you live all the durations, both single and overall of the CD. —82.56.223.15 (talk) 01:25, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it was just "Taker". Anyway, the latest round of edits beginning on December 5 made by 82.49.5.52, 151.43.197.216, and 82.56.223.15 are definitely yours (that's why we are here talking). The edits made by 95.246.157.208 in March and April 2021, which made the same duration changes must be yours as well, judging by the edit summaries:

1 April: "hi, I changed the duration of the tracks because they are wrong, I have the cd in question and I can guarantee you that the right duration is the one that I put."[5]
4 April:"you're lying, the total length of the entire album in question lasts more than 31 minutes and not 26 as you claim, so the length of the individual tracks is wrong."[6]
4 April:"I put you in front of the fait accompli, the total duration of the album in question is still and unquestionably 31:22, only those who are wrong do not admit it. Grow up. Bye Bye."[7]

The edits made by 93.33.174.106, 93.33.174.104, and 93.33.174.107 in February and March 2017 and by 93.33.175.210 in August 2017 also made the same duration changes, but did not include edit summaries.

You have repeatedly claimed that you are right and that you "can guarantee you that the right duration is the one that I put." But you also claim that you don't know the IP addresses and they could be someone else. All of these IPs locate to the same areas of Italy and edit the same articles related to the Doors, Miles Davis, Clapton, etc. This raises serious concerns about credibility.

So far, only one of the CD liner notes shows the track durations, which is what the article has been using until you changed it. No other Castle liner notes have been produced and the links you have provided are to unreliable, user-generated type sites, which only show what tracks they are hosting (copyvio?). Sundazed prepared a limited LP edition of the album, which includes track timings,[8] but the durations differ from both the Castle liner notes and what you are attempting to use. (How do you know what the total duration of an LP is just by putting it on a "vinyl turntable"?) Russo lists the Sundazed LP in his Yardbirds' bio, but I don't think there's enough to meet WP:ALTTRACKLIST.

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:31, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly got tired of this Yardbirds Live album! Blueswailing July '64, the question is very simple, you say you have the CD in question of the Castle/Sanctuary, as I think you will have a stereo, fifth put it in the CD player and tell me how long each individual track lasts, finally tell me the player as the overall duration of the CD what it indicates, mine says what I have always supported, and stop saying that other CDs or albums differ because it is not true, the duration of the individual tracks and the total one are always the same, the mistake unfortunately lies in the fact that, the Castle/Sanctuary edition and perhaps others bring in the notes On the cover the durations of the wrong single songs and consequently the overall one is wrong all here, there is no other CDs or vinyls have different durations otherwise the concert would be edited, I hope I'm explained, while for IP 4 they are definitely mine the others I'm not sure. —82.56.223.15 (talk) 00:15, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You've removed any small amount of credibility that you might have had left with your assertion "there is no other CDs or vinyls have different durations". There is photographic evidence that there are different versions of the album that clearly list different track durations.[9][10] Different releases of live albums sometimes have variations in banding to cut down on the tuning-up and applause portions or to move some to the next or prior songs, but the actual songs (music) themselves are not "edited". This only makes them different, not wrong.

Talk all you want about your CD: even if what you are claiming is true, it's original research, which is prohibited by WP policy. How would we know which you have or if it's even legit? At one time, Italy was well-known for pirated and other bootlegged CDs. The bottom line is, no reliable sources have been produced that show that the durations on Castle CD liner notes or the Sundazed LP labels are incorrect for those editions of the album. You need to get over the idea that only the CDs you have access to are the correct ones. This is why so many of your edits to other albums are reverted. Wake up and smell the espresso amico.

—Ojorojo (talk) 15:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, just don't understand anything about what I said, I got tired, this is one of the many reasons why I don't write, it's not that I'm arrogant, I like the comparison, but not this kind of comparison. I said that, the duration of the concert, in this case we are talking about a small set of just over half an hour, it is always the same, it does not change on any audio device, otherwise it would be edited, in the case of Live! Blueswailing July '64 that we are discussing the duration is always the same in all the various editions, at most it can differ by 1 or 2 seconds no more, in fact if you see the overall durations they are always all from 31:19, 31:21, while those few editions with the cover notes written on it as in the case of the Castle / Sanctuary that I The point is that there are editions with wrong notes, but the concert recorded and put on any audio device has a different and longer overall duration, not for the reasons you support, but simply because the liner notes are wrong, I hope you understand. —82.56.223.15 (talk) 23:34, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not re-add contentious material or introduce new problems while the article is still being discussed (see WP:BRD). As pointed out previously, "The" in band names is not capitalized mid-sentence; unofficial youtube uploads should not be linked in articles (also, it's not consider a reliable source); fansites like whereseric.com are not reliable (other reliable sources use a date of 7 August), etc. Let the BRD process continue, then the appropriate changes can be made. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've submitted a request for a third opinion.[11] It may take up to six days for a response; a break from editing the article probably would be good for us both. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:55, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry, keep all your mistakes and problems, I really don't know what to do with someone who doesn't have ears to hear, take care, put everything as you like it. You made me lose completely interest, I repeat write everything you want to your liking including obvious mistakes. Hi, bye. —82.56.223.15 (talk) 23:48, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Third opinion: I have not seen a compelling argument from the IP editor as to why the track listings should be referenced from anything other than the original album notes, which Ojorojo claims are what are currently referenced. If that's true, keep the track listing information as it was, from the original CD or album notes. Anecdotal evidence for a song duration is not RS. Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 16:13, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Pyrrho the Skeptic: After the IP's last comment, I went ahead and re-added the original durations (with a link to a photo showing them). I also included a mention of two other editions/releases, with links. Hopefully, this will provide a better idea that there are different versions. Thanks for your input. —Ojorojo (talk) 20:34, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

IPs have resumed making the same disruptive edits:

95.234.99.12 (talk · contribs) (15/7/22)
95.250.146.20 (talk · contribs) (3/8/22)

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]