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Points vs. percentage

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From the FoxNews page linked to this page: "1 — 9/17/01: -684.81 points, -7.13 percent

2 — 4/14/00: -617.78, -5.66

3 — 10/27/97: -554.26, -7.18

4 — 8/31/98: -512.61, -6.37

5 — 10/19/87: -508.00, -22.61"

These are based on the top ten POINT losses in the DJIA. The first conclusion should be that POINT drops don't mean anything at all. It is the percentage drop that is important. I'd say there is only one crash on this list 10/19/87. Who remembers any of these other dates? Crashes should be something everybody in the market remembers, a once in a lifetime, or at most a once a decade, event. As far as I can tell there were only 4 crashes in the US in the 20th century: 1907, 1914, 1929, and 1987. People tend to put much too much garbage in here under crashes! Smallbones (talk) 13:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article doesn't mention anything about the 1914 crash...actually, I'm having trouble finding anything about it at all on the site. Chubbles (talk) 21:50, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Trading was closed in the summer of 1914 as the US entered WWI. It resumed in December of that year and there was a very large, immediate drop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.116.132 (talk) 21:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definition?

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There seems to be some confusion here about the difference between a crash and a bear market. This confusion is also found in the Times article referenced, so it is not just us!

From our article on Stock market crash:

There is no numerically-specific definition of a crash but the term commonly applies to steep double-digit percentage losses in a stock market index over a period of several days. Crashes are often distinguished from bear markets by panic selling and abrupt, dramatic price declines. Bear markets are periods of declining stock market prices that are measured in months or years. While crashes are often associated with bear markets, they do not necessarily go hand in hand. The crash of 1987 for example did not lead to a bear market. Likewise, the Japanese Nikkei bear market of the 1990s occurred over several years without any notable crashes.

I'd say 10% is the minimum decline needed for a crash. But this should only be for large markets (e.g. US, UK). The smaller the market you look at, the more likely a 10% move, so for example there may have been dozens of 10% drops in the Vancouver Stock Exchange natural resource companies (but probably very few people would have noticed this). So for smaller markets, I'll suggest a 20% minimum decline before we call it a crash, along with some reliable source (not purely local) that says that it is notable. Smallbones (talk) 16:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, I question whether the subprime mortgage crisis belongs on this list. While it certainly has effects on the stock markets, as exhibited yesterday, it is a broader subject than that and not, in and of itself, a stock market crash. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 19:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Until experts and economists are calling this a crash, there is no need to list it here (especially unsourced). The closure and nationalization/merger of banks+AIG does not count as a "stock market crash", that is just failing companies. And the Subprime mortgage crisis (TWO YEAR EVENT) is not a stock market crash either. The case may be made in the years to come that today was a stock market crash, with the Dow Jones having its highest ever points drop, but until the definition says that the percentage drop doesn't have to be double figures, then we can think about listing it here. As most editors will say, this is a recent event, and the info can change quickly. This needs "historical" perspective before we start listing these here. I'm removing them. Deamon138 (talk) 22:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the events listed in the article are bear markets, not crashes. For example, there never was a dotcom market "crash", just a bear market. The current situation is also a bear market. By definition, a bear market is a 20% decline in the stock market over a sustained period. As of October 7, 2008, the market was down 32% year-to-date.[1] --JHP (talk) 07:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bear markets are not crashes

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This list is incorrectly identifying bear markets as crashes. Crashes are sudden, usually single day events. Bear markets last months or years. To avoid confusing readers, I recommend creating a separate article for a list of bear markets. --JHP (talk) 12:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Go right ahead. People keep adding the events of September 29 on here as well, when that isn't a crash either. Create that article. In the meantime, I am reverting your edits back to my last edit, because the title of this article is "List of stock market crashes" not "List of stock market crashes and bear markets". If some of the examples in the list are bear markets (and I am sure some are, but I'm not confident to remove them) in your opinion, remove them instead of adding extra criteria at the top of the page. It may encourage people to add more bear markets otherwise. Thanks! Deamon138 (talk) 01:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your revert made the article factually incorrect. It is not a list of stock market crashes as it currently exists. Most of the events in the list are bear markets, not crashes. Making the article factually incorrect just so the introductory text can be consistent with the title is ridiculous. The content of the article is inconsistent with the title! I am reverting your revert because the article is incorrect in its current form. I am a WikiGnome; I have no intention of going through the effort of creating a new article. --JHP (talk) 07:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An alternative would be to simply move this article to List of stock market crashes and bear markets. --JHP (talk) 07:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should the current problem be added?

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{{TodaysFinancialNews}} The US the worst crisis since the great depression is happening, should that be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Not G. Ivingname (talk • contribs) 20:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This page needs to be updated. How can the largest daily downswings ever on the stock market (both occurring in the last week) not be mentioned? And we're talking about very sizable percentages as well as overall points -- especially since the peak last year. --Nihilozero (talk) 05:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Measuring in percentages is the only intelligent way to decide what gets listed. Journalists love to talk about point declines because it allows them to make a big deal about historically insignificant declines. We are not journalists. On Black Tuesday in 1929, the DJIA fell 68.9 points (23%).[2] By contrast, during this decade a 68.9 point drop in the Dow is almost insignificant. --JHP (talk) 08:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the September 30 and October 8, 2008 entries. Before adding something here, especially something recent, please make sure that you have a reliable source that uses the word "crash" in the story. The most reliable sources in finanical journalism are The Wall Strret Journal, the Finanical Times, and probably the New York Times. Following Sept. 30 these sources did not use the term crash, rather they implied the 700 pt. drop in the DJIA did not constitue a crash. The October 8 event is still going on, so it is still too early - it might even end up higher for the day - who knows at this point? I'll suggest waiting until tomorrow and seeing if any of the above sources explicitly call it a "crash."

Also please notice the above tag - Template:TodaysFinancialNews please use this tag on any articles that try to say that today's market action is a "crash." Smallbones (talk) 17:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article on Stock market crashes says that "There is no numerically specific definition of a crash but the term commonly applies to steep double-digit percentage losses in a stock market index over a period of several days." We are now at about a 17% DJIA drop in four business days and 23% in nine business days (starting with the first 7% one-day drop in the current event). Articles from major sources like WSJ, FT, and NYT are now starting to use the word "crash" for this event:

  • "the crash has been exacerbated by..." and "Why is this crash a classic?"[3]
  • "this sell-off, which can now fairly be called a crash."[4]
  • "This is the crash of 2008."[5]).

They are also saying it is the worst event since the '87 crash and making other comparisons of this event with the worst crashes ("By comparison, in the worst week of the 1929 stock market crash, the week ended Oct. 19 that year, the Dow took a loss of 8.2%."[6]);

Market analysts are also starting to call it a crash:

  • Financial Crisis 2008 Similar to 1987 Stock Market Crash [7]
  • Stock Market Crash- Where's the Bottom? [8]
  • European Government's Panic Triggers Stock Market Crash [9]
  • Worst daily loss of 2008; five-year lows as recession fears escalate ("the recent stock market crash...") [10]

It is getting to be hard to not call it one of the worst crashes. --RichardMathews (talk) 21:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

CNBC also called this "gradual crash" today on Fast Money. Though this didn't all happen in one day, it still qualifies as a crash and should be added. 147.9.156.29 (talk) 22:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Global financial crisis of September–October 2008 definitely belongs here now; numerous reliable sources are referring to it as a crash. I just added it to the table. --Seattle Skier (talk) 00:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

how is this not a crash in every possible sense?, just look at the numbers over one day, and several days recently, obviously the media would say whether its a crash, but the info speaks for itself Rodrigue (talk) 15:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FT reference

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"Previous instances, according to Rob Arnott of Research Affiliates, were from 1929 to 1932 (when the fall in real terms was 83 per cent), from 1852 to 1857 (a fall of 66 per cent compared with inflation) and from 1905 to 1921 (a 65 per cent fall)." - [11] -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 19:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The European and Dubai debt crisis

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both events caused global markets to drop especially the Euro crisis where the value of the Euro went down as well. They should not be removed from the article. Rizalninoynapoleon (talk) 14:19, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The EUro went down? Are you insane? The Euro was around 1.4 Dollar until 2014/2015 when the ECB decided on quantitative Easing...This is not based in any fact whatsoever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.100.207 (talk) 06:08, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Recent additions needed

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188.28.178.28 (talk) 16:21, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Greek debt crisis

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"Greece could not afford the euro"? What kind of bullshit article is this? No mention of the National Referendum that took place on July 5, or the precipitous decline in the Shanghai Stock Exchange. This is a perfect example of shoddy writing and even shoddier research. I suggest this section be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.103.64.66 (talk • contribs) 13:15, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

2015 Chinese stock market crash

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Factual information about the Chinese stock market crash is being marked as vandalism by DonitzLiebt. The market did not stabilize following the crash as there was a steep sell-off in January 2016 which sparked a global rout (as stated in the linked article). 74.94.46.205 (talk) 15:36, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Brexit "crash" and crystal balls

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We've currently got a "Brexit crash" listed. The problem is that the stock market is up over the course of a week. Surprising - maybe- but no crash. Let's first try to define what a crash means. I'd say a 20% decline, but others might say 10%. Let's see what has happened from Weds June 22 to today, July 1.

  • FTSE 100
    • 6261 Weds
    • 6338 Thurs (just as votes started coming in)
    • 6139
    • 5982 (down 5.6% from Thurs (election Day)
    • 6140
    • 6360
    • 6504
    • 6557 (up 3.5% from election day)

With the Guardian stating in the article "Post-Brexit crisis, what crisis? The FTSE 100 is roaring ahead", "The FTSE 100 is heading for its best weekly performance since December 2011. After an initial slump in the first two trading days following the Brexit vote, the index of Britain’s top 100 companies regained all its losses by Wednesday and is now at its best level since last August."

Check the other indexes - no crash. We need to be able to state the unvarnished truth here - no crash. Smallbones(smalltalk) 13:36, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Associated Press at http://bigstory.ap.org/article/d4930c2180b143d685213a75e916bee8/british-vote-leaving-eu-rocks-world-financial-markets and CNBC at http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/26/brexit-cost-investors-2-trillion-the-worst-one-day-drop-ever.html and http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/27/brexit-related-losses-widen-in-relentless-sell-off.html confirmed a $3 trillion crash. It does not matter that there was a huge recovery after the crash, or the 2010 Flash Crash would not be called a stock market crash. Also, Black Monday (1987) had a big recovery after the crash, but is still recorded as a crash. Jesse Viviano (talk) 17:35, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Wall Street Crash of 1929 also had some recovery as well after it. (In this case, the recovery got wiped out later on.) Jesse Viviano (talk) 17:44, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
CNN Money called it a crash at http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/27/investing/brexit-consequences-2-trillion-lost/ . Jesse Viviano (talk) 17:49, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(EC)Flash crash over a 9% decline in 36 minutes - notable mostly for being so bizarre (i.e. the "Flash"). Black Monday -25% in one day (with full recovery about a year later. 1929 crash, (from memory) about a 30% decline over about 2 weeks, partial recovery, then a steeper drop much later.
-5.6% over a couple of days, just doesn't do it as far as a crash. Perhaps some reporters panicked, but the market certainly didn't. Is there anybody calling it a crash now? Please leave it out or you'll make Wikipedia into a laughing stock - no crash means we can't report a crash. Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:57, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. MarketWatch, which is owned by Dow Jones & Company calls it a crash at http://www.marketwatch.com/story/summer-crash-of-2016-is-about-more-than-the-brexit-2016-06-28 . Also see http://www.marketwatch.com/story/summer-crash-of-2016-is-about-more-than-the-brexit-2016-06-28 for Business Insider calling it a crash. When multiple major media companies declare a crash, I have a strong case to mark this as a crash. It is a shame that no economists have formally defined a stock market crash, or building this table would be much easier because different people define their cutoffs for a crash is differently, so deciding what counts as a crash is a matter of opinion. Also, the quick and full recovery shows that what happened was probably a panic that created a buying opportunity for those who were brave enough to buy as long as the rally holds and does not prove to be a dead cat bounce. Jesse Viviano (talk) 19:18, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked up a definition for "Stock Market crash" [12] and found the following:

"Although there is no specific threshold for stock market crashes, they are usually identified as abrupt double-digit percentage drops in a stock index over the course of a few days."
That certainly hasn't happened.
I also noticed an edit summary from last week after somebody reverted the removal of the Brexit crash because it just wasn't big enough. Edit summary was (approx) "Let's keep it in there in case it goes down next week." That's just upside-down crystal ball reading. Let's just admit that somebody made a mistake, and get back to reality. Smallbones(smalltalk) 19:23, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That definition would wipe out most of the crashes including the 2010 flash crash. I think that it might be best to solicit input from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Finance before we remove the entry. I feel that the biggest worldwide one day drop in total dollars in all of the world's stock markets and the biggest worldwide two day drop in total dollars in all of the world's stock markets would qualify the result as a crash much better than the 2010 Flash Crash which I don't think qualifies as a stock market crash. I think that the threshold we need to use here is if major media outlets report a crash and can be cited due to the lack of a generally accepted formal definition. Jesse Viviano (talk) 20:09, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But you know *it's not even close to being a crash!* The "the biggest worldwide one day drop in total dollars" was a very carefully constructed number. It has more to do with inflation, the internationalization of stock markets, and in general the rise of publicly traded firms vs. privately held firms. 10% is less than the annual standard deviation of US market returns. That means that about 1/3rd of years would be considered "crash years." And that is just not in anybody's definition of "crash." Let's just admit that a "Brexit crash" just did not happen and correct our mistake. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it still is not a crash, it is a notable short term bear market and deserves a listing as this table lists both stock market crashes and bear markets. I consider this to be a stock market crash, but you could call it a bear market and change the title, but should not remove it. Jesse Viviano (talk) 23:23, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have left a question for other finance-minded Wikipedians at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Finance#What qualifies as a stock market crash? Jesse Viviano (talk) 01:32, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am here from WikiProject Finance. In terms of a definition of "crash," I don't think you can do better than the definition at stock market crash: "There is no numerically specific definition of a stock market crash but the term commonly applies to steep double-digit percentage losses in a stock market index over a period of several days. Crashes are often distinguished from bear markets by panic selling and abrupt, dramatic price declines." I am not sure if there are any markets in which the Brexit event would qualify; it was not a stock market crash in the U.S., but there were larger movements in some other markets. The fact that there then was some recovery would not, in my opinion, disqualify it as a crash. John M Baker (talk) 02:48, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Euro Stoxx 50 fell from 3,037.86 on the end of June 23, 2016 to a low of 2,680.72 near the end of the trading day on June 27, 2016. See https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1467050400000&chddm=1983&chls=IntervalBasedLine&q=INDEXSTOXX:SX5E&ntsp=0&ei=Hi19V9nuF9CneebXjMAK . That is an 11.76% decline according to my calculation, so that is a double digit decline over 3 days. For the S&P Europe 350, the value fell from 1,397.49 to a low of 1,249.52 according to https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1467057600000&chddm=1173&chls=IntervalBasedLine&q=INDEXSP:SPE350&ntsp=0&ei=Wit9V6HmEoWpefWvjpAF . Since the declines are over 10%, that is a double digit decline in the market, so it is a weak crash in some pan-European stock indices in my opinion.Jesse Viviano (talk) 16:14, 6 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Brexit non-crash

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We really have to have some discipline here and can't willy-nilly call everything that scares a few people a crash. We're near the one-year anniversery of the non-crash and I just checked the FTSE 100 chart of the index level over 1 year.

  • June 23 2016 6338.1
  • June 27 5982.2 (post Brexit low) -5.6% from June 23
  • July 1 6577.8 +10.0% since June 27
  • October 31 6954.2
  • November 4 6693.2 -3.8% from October 31 (a couple more short-term down moves approach this size)
  • 7505.1 +18.4% since June 23, 2016

The point is that there never was a 10% drop in the index, there never was a crash. I'll erase the Brexit crash entry. we're talking 2 different things here "Brexit" and "crash".

BTW, please see Aftermath of the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016, the article linked to the table entry. There's one 5 sentence paragraph on the stock market in a very long article. 2 sentences are about the down move, 3 sentences are about the up move. What crash?

Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A crash occurs when stock prices suddenly fall and cause significant financial harm. The 10% and 20% drops are thresholds for a correction and bear market, respectively, with the latter lasting at least two months. Stock market crashes do NOT have to lead to such declines.--OfficerAPC (talk) 15:26, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Definition needed

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We've got no definition for members of the list. Fortune just gave a pretty good definition re: "today's crash." A crash is a loss of 20%. Though they don't give a precise time-frame other than "abrupt and rapid", it looks like they mean approx. "over the course of a few days." They say a correction is a loss of 10% from a recent peak.

But although the Dow’s more than 1175-point drop made the ticker tape look even uglier than it did on the darkest days following Lehman Brothers’ 2008 collapse, it was not a market crash, or even remotely close. Market crashes are generally defined by an abrupt and rapid decline of 20% or more: The 1929 Black Tuesday crash, 1987’s Black Monday, the dot-com bust in 2000, and the ’08 financial crisis all had that in common. (That’s similar to the definition of a bear market, which is when prices are down 20% from their peak, which can happen more gradually.) And market crashes also have a more mild-mannered sibling, the market correction, which is when prices fall at least 10% from their highs. But we’re not there yet either. Even after a multi-day selloff, spurred in part by Friday’s stronger-than-expected jobs report which sparked fears of an inflation spike, the Dow is only off 8.5% from its all-time-record of 26,616.71 last month, while the S&P 500 is down 7.8% from its high.

— "The Dow Just Lost Even More Than Bitcoin. But Don't Call it a Stock Market Crash". Fortune. February 5, 2018. Retrieved February 6, 2018.

The New York Times has a broadly similar article, but doesn't mention 20% Context Matters. The Stock Market Drop Is Less Scary Than It Seems.

I'll suggest that we use the 20% cutoff for all the members of the list. And I will remove "today's crash" from the list. After all "it was not ... even remotely close." Smallbones(smalltalk) 02:48, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter how much the stock market declines, what matters is that one stock market crash leads to another. Even the Flash Crash and Brexit in 2010 and 2016 had significant impact, yet did not reach a 10% decline afterwards. And besides, today's selloff on Wall Street broke records for daily point losses, which is certainly worth being included. OfficerAPC (talk) 03:29, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why we should include the recent stock market sell-off

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Judging by the recent events regarding the stock market sell-off that began last week, it appears to be exhibiting similar behaviors as the one in 2015 (and into 2016). There are sources reporting on this unfortunate series of events, but we have not written an article on it. Chances are, if large gains suddenly appear following large losses, it is very likely to crash back down to the point where the stock market began to recover or even lower. OfficerAPC (talk) 23:51, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Someone please thin down (dramatically) the 2020 Coronavirus Crash commentary section

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This article is supposed to be a list, this 2020 section alone has ten times more text than any other list. That text belongs on a different page.208.90.12.47 (talk) 12:09, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For now, the information only includes a record-breaking plunge from all-time highs all the way down to bear market territory. 9March2019 (talk) 13:07, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2022 Market Crash

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Was wondering if it is the correct time to put 2022 as a stock market crash considering the market worldwide are down badly and s&p edging bear market territory. Fab1442006 (talk) 16:48, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bear market = index decline of more than 20% for over a two month period.
Very few reputable news sources are calling it a crash (acute and short decrease), most warning about a future crash.
It's too early - Yokohama1989 (talk) 18:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As of today's close, it's "game over" for the current bull market as the S&P officially entered a bear market. The NASDAQ already got there several weeks before and the Dow has yet to reach the threshold. 9March2019 (talk) 20:08, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And now, the Dow has confirmed bear market status. 9March2019 (talk) 02:37, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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