Talk:List of oldest church buildings

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Lullingstone Roman Villa

What about Lullingstone Roman Villa? According to English Heritage, which maintains the site:^[1]

The evidence of the Christian house-church is a unique discovery for Roman Britain and the wall paintings are of international importance. Not only do they provide some of the earliest evidence for Christianity in Britain, they are almost unique – the closest parallels come from a house-church in Dura Europus, Syria.

References

^ "Significance," Lullingstone Roman Villa, English Heritage, accessed 15 June 2012

Jubail Church

I'm inserting the Al-Jubail Church into the main list (as well as leaving it in the Saudi Arabia section. Correct if I'm missing something. I can't find a confirmed date for it, so the guesstimate of "375 AD" is a mere approximation. Please revise as appropriate. Benefac (talk) 18:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To clean this up...

Quality isn't quantity. This being a list article isn't an excuse to ignore all project guidelines and all regard for encyclopedicity or even basic reasonableness. The German article has a clean list of a handful of churches of the 1st to 6th centuries.

We can go beyond this, if desired, but if we do, we need to do it properly. The way it has been done here calls for radical WP:TNT. Then, any entry can be re-added with proper attribution. I will begin by at least removing the entries with red links (or no links), which are worse than useless. The blue links may at least be of some use to interested readers, inviting them to visit the article linked and see if there is anything of value there. --dab (𒁳) 10:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The main issue is the conflation of existing church buildings with ancient monastic establishments. For instance, Saint Anthony's Monastery may be the oldest in existence, but there is no pre-medieval architecture there. This applies to almost all monastic establishments listed in the upper part of the page. --Ghirla^-трёп- 06:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree we need to clean this list up and add some clarity about what claims are being made. I know some major revisions were made over the past month. Swampyank (talk) 16:45, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Santa Maria in Trastevere

Santa Maria in Trastevere foundations is from 221-227 AD, but some still removes this to 340 AD, but in 340 AD, there were a lager scale being built, but the start of the church is 221-227 AD - fact — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.121.171 (talk) 22:13, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why not the Pantheon?

Granted, the Pantheon (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome) was originally built for pagan worship (126AD), but original non-religious usage didn't preclude several other structures from being included on this list. Even if we date the Pantheon from its first use as a church (609), one would think that it would still belong on this list. Jojo45 (talk) 19:47, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Pantheon is a not a Church today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HDMS Apple (talk • contribs) 14:38, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

??? It certainly is -- Santa Maria della Rotunda with services still happening that I've attended. Even the Wikipedia article notes this. I think that the article needs to differentiate among a number of different criteria: oldest surviving buildings that were built as churches, oldest known church buildings not necessarily surviving, and oldest buildings that are now (or were) used as churches even if they were not built to be churches. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 23:27, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

what about Sultana Mahdokht in Araden , Iraq? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.54.189 (talk) 06:20, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lateran Basilica

The Archbasilica of St. John Lateran is used as a church since 313 CE, and it is a prominent church as well. It should be in the list, if St. Peter is in it. ♆ CUSH ♆ 08:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Church of Hvalsey-Oldest Church in the Americas

Why is there no mention at all of the Church of Hvalsey, the oldest surviving church in Greenland built sometime between 12-14th century by the vikings before vanishing? Thus, this church predates all the earliest Spanish built churches in the Americas by at least a century or more. Appropriately, this church should be designated as the oldest known, surviving church in the Americas and Western Hemisphere.

Cathedral of Saint Domnius

There are claims voiced by certain flimsy Croatian sources that the Cathedral of Saint Domnius is the "oldest Cathedral in the world". Now presumably this refers to the date of the construction of the actual building in 305 AD as the mausoleum of Diocletian, whereas the structure was consecrated as a cathedral at the turn of the 7th century. Therefore I'm unsure whether to place it up by the Etchmiadzin Cathedral, or down in the early 7th century?

Further, is this the oldest Catholic Cathedral that has remained in use throughout, still in its original structure (without massive renovations as in Rome or Trier? -- Director (talk) 20:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Where it is now seems appropriate - 7th century. Not sure of the answer to your 2nd question, and do you mean 'Roman' or just Catholic? Dougweller (talk) 14:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I do mean Roman Catholic? -- Director (talk) 19:57, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oldest Church Building

Is this: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Thiruvithamcode_Arappally

Don't be silly. Provide a reliable source explicitly supporting that. -- Director (talk) 13:14, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

High to Late Middle Ages section

Honestly, what is the point of having this section? There are an enormous number of Gothic churches across Europe that date from this period . . . are we going to list them all? At this point the article seems to be straying away from its stated purpose (to list the oldest church buildings in the world) and just becomes a list of merely old churches. 108.254.160.23 (talk) 03:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think that from that section and later section we should remove all that don't claim to be the oldest in their country. Dougweller (talk) 10:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient churches of Africa

Obviously, there are many more noteworthy ancient churches in Africa that deserve a listing here. Some of them are as follows:

The temple at Yeha, Ethiopia, which is the oldest standing structure in Sub-Saharan Africa. Originally a pagan temple, at some point it was converted to a Christian Church. (See David W. Phillipson, Ancient Churches of Ethiopia [New Haven: Yale University Press, 2009], p. 36, cited in the article on the town.)
That means Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion in Aksum is the oldest church building in Sub-Saharan Africa still in regular use. (I can't think of another church in the Horn of Africa that would match that claim.)
There are -- or were -- a number of Aksumite churches in Eritrea which were demolished in the 20th century by the Italians & Haile Selassie's regime. Worth mentioning, although the oldest surviving remains of a church in Eritrea would be in Adulis. (I think a basilica structure was identified there; if @Merhawie: is still active, he may know.)
Returning to Ethiopia, there are a large number (IIRC, at least 140 documented) of churches constructed inside of caves in Amhara & Tigray, in the Askumite style. Creation of these structures has been dated as early as the 7th century, & continued as late as the 11th & 12th centuries. The most familiar examples of these would be the churches Imrahanna Kristos & Makina Madhane Alem; Phillipson dates these 2 churches to the 11th/12th centuries based on typology (p. 188)
And then there are the famous churches carved from the living rock, of which the ones in Lalibela are only the best known. These include the 3 churches of Degum in Tigray (dated 3rd quarter of the 1st millenium AD -- Phillipson, p. 91); Abreha-wa-Atsbeha & Tcherqos Wukro, also in Tigray (dated between AD 700-1000 -- Phillipson, p. 185); & Ganata Maryam in Amhara (dated between AD 1000 & 1300, around the time the churches in Lalibela were carved -- Phillipson pp. 188f)
In Sudan, the early medieval Nubian kingdoms professed Christianity, & a cathedral was discovered by Polish archeologists at Fara. According to Coptic Diocese of Faras, bishops are attested as early as the 7th century. (Sadly, neither article provides acceptable sourcing, but I remember from researching Kingdom of Makuria years ago that there are reliable sources about this structure.)
In Tunisia, French archeologists have been at work on the site of Carthage. Inasmuch that Carthage was the premier bishopric of North Africa, I can't help wondering if they have identified the remains of the pre-Islamic cathedral in that city.
In Algeria lies the site of Hippo Regius, where St. Augustine held his see. While I don't know of any archeological work there, I have the same speculations.

Yes, the last two are speculations, & some may dismiss them as original research. Hopefully others will accept them as potential leads & see if they lead anywhere. (Or maybe some eager archeologist will pursue these possibilities, & provide us reliable sources which we can add to this article at a future date.) -- llywrch (talk) 05:45, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What about the Euphrasian Basilica located in Porec, Croatia. Just visited the site today. According to information at this UNESCO heritage site, the original church was the location of services held secretly in the living room of the priest (which subsequently became the site of the Basilica) as early as second half of the the 4th Century. The priest was martyred because of his activities. See the following wikipedia link: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Euphrasian_Basilica. I have photos from the Basilica and of informational placards that I would be glad to share. Good luck!

-PC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulchesterton (talk • contribs) 23:53, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Aqaba church

This church is worth mentioning somewhere [1], separately. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:46, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Syracuse

The core of Syracuse Cathedral dates from the 5th century BC. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 19:59, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Istanbul is in Europe

Hi folks. Is there a reason that Chora Church and Hagia Irene are listed in the Asia section? The old part of Istanbul is in Europe, on the west side of the Bosphorus Straits.

43hellokitty21 (talk) 19:19, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And the Sinai peninsula is in Asia, not in Africa.2A02:908:1C48:1180:29E5:BA44:2DA2:4C90 (talk) 19:16, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Thaddaeus Monastery

Kevo327 The is no evidence in the citations provided of the Thaddaeus Monastery's existence before the 10th century, and no evidence that there was a Christian bishopric at all in the area before the 7th century. The citations state that even the most pious traditions relate that Gregory the Illuminator founded the first Christian building on the site. The relationship with either Thaddeus or the 1st-century king of Armenia is not worthy of the article and certainly has no place in the lead. GPinkerton (talk) 06:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GPinkerton: Just add a 'better source needed' tag next to it till i look for one. As for the inclusion on the lead, that's debatable, a little context doesn't hurt when talking about monasteries that are that old. Also, please mind your tone as it seems too aggressive compared to the content that you're discussing, I know you propably didn't intend it but still. - Kevo327 (talk) 09:17, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kevo327, why should this (at oldest 3rd-century) monastery be mentioned in the lead when there is not one scrap of evidence that suggests it is "associated with 66 AD" in reality and the supporting citations baldly state that there is no evidence of even the more plausible claim of a 3rd-century foundation? There is never going to be better source because there is never going to be any evidence of a 1st-century connection beyond the claims of the very-unreliable-for-this-period ancient historian Movses Khorenatsi. We might as well include Glastonbury Abbey in this list, with a "better source needed", because mediaeval legend claims it was founded by Joseph of Arimathea! Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and claims that a church existed in the 1st century, several centuries before the first archaeological evidence of such a thing, is extraordinary in the extreme. GPinkerton (talk) 09:38, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Date for Hagia Sophia

Instead of choosing the date for the last construction. We should add the oldest parts of Hagia Sophia which are dating to 360. Since for most of other churchs use the oldest parts of their structure like 'Cathedral of Saint Domnius' or Trier Cathedral (current building 1235) but added to the list as the year 270.

Then Hagia Sophia also should be presented here not from the 6th century but 4th century. Where many colomns, stones etc. are in the present in the structure. And historically all served as the same church at the same location.

But now it is listed two times.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:05, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested edit: Dura-Europos Church

The Dura-Europos church article reads: The fate of the church after the occupation of Syrian territory by ISIS during the Syrian Civil War is unknown; it is assumed the building was destroyed. If this is true, then there is no indication of this uncertainty regarding the church's survival in this list article, which there reasonably should be, especially given the church's mention in the lead section as the oldest surviving church. _MB190417_ (talk) 15:47, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Panagia Skripou

Byzantine church of the Panagia at Skripou at Orchomenos in Boeotia. Well-preserved inscriptions date the church securely to 873/4 CE, naming its sponsor as the Protospatharios Leon, who served as a senior official of the emperor Basil I 2A02:586:243E:EEB:14E1:4F5B:2A06:205B (talk) 21:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "Significance," Lullingstone Roman Villa, English Heritage, accessed 15 June 2012

[1]