Talk:List of genocides
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Before writing a comment please read the comments below, and add yours in the most relevant section, or add a new section if nothing similar exists.
Genocides against Tibetan and Uyghur peoples by the Chinese Communist Party.
[edit]Where are the active genocides against the Muslim Uyghurs in China's Xinjiang province and against Tibetan Buddhists in Tibet?
To call these atrocities anything other than genocide is a disgrace. If Israel's actions in Palestine can be called a genocide, then the CCP's ongoing attempt to exterminate and sinophy the Uyghur and Tibetan peoples and religions should absolutely be labelled a genocide. Jbak0905 (talk) 09:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- "Uyghur genocide" was previously listed in the article but was removed for failing the inclusion criteria back when we used the UN definition. Now that the inclusion criteria has changed it may be time for another discussion about it. TRCRF22 (talk) 12:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Under the new inclusion criteria Uyghur should certainly be included. Tibet is usually characterized as a 'cultural genocide' so would require further discussion to establish clear consensus—blindlynx 14:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Endwise: As the user who removed the Uyghur genocide entry from the list, could you offer an opinion? TRCRF22 (talk) 09:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- It should be noted that one of the reasons for removing it was a lack of death toll. Every single entry in the article's list has a death toll. The Uyghur genocide, when it was listed here, was the only entry that did not have a death toll. Given that the article Uyghur genocide itself had its title changed to Persecution of Uyghurs in China, you should first go there and argue for a restoration of that article's title. But you should familiarize yourself with the subject matter and the discussion behind the decision here. JasonMacker (talk) 17:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
- These are considered “cultural genocide” if I am not mistaken, as opposed to genocide in the liter sense here, the mass killing of thousands of people with intent to destroy them The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
- I can't speak to the situation in Tibet, about which I am totally uninformed, but several experts have described the persecution of Uyghurs as meeting the standard of the Genocide Convention. While it's true that there are no (or very few) deaths, genocide can also be committed by "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group", and by "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group", both of which have been documented against Uyghurs. TRCRF22 (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- From the article Persecution of Uyghurs in China, the following scholarship is mentioned or cited as it being a case of genocide (as opposed to cultural genocide):
- Finley, Joanne (2020). "Why Scholars and Activists Increasingly Fear a Uyghur Genocide in Xinjiang". Journal of Genocide Research. 23 (3). Newcastle University: 348–370. doi:10.1080/14623528.2020.1848109. ISSN 1462-3528. S2CID 236962241.
- Fiskejö, Magnus (2020). "Forced Confessions as Identity Conversion in China's Concentration Camps". Monde Chinois . 62 (2): 28–43 – via Cairn.info.
- "Chinese Persecution of the Uyghurs". United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. 2021.
- "CASCA Statement on Xinjiang" (PDF). Canadian Anthropology Society. 28 June 2021. Archived (PDF) from the original on 1 July 2021. Retrieved 4 July 2021.
- -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have time in the near future to do the digging myself, but looking for papers published in the following journals concluding it is a genocide would help bolster the argument for inclusion (and should be added to the Persecution article):
- Journal of Genocide Research
- Genocide Studies and Prevention
- Holocaust and Genocide Studies
- Genocide Studies International
- Journal of Human Rights Practice
- The International Journal of Human Rights
- American Journal of International Law
- Human Rights Quarterly
- European Journal of International Law
- American Journal of Comparative Law
- Virginia Journal of International Law
- Chicago Journal of International Law
- Journal of International Criminal Justice
- Fordham International Law Journal
- International Journal of Transitional Justice
- German Law Journal
- Human Rights Law Review
- Cornell International Law Journal
- Vanderbilt Journal of Transnational Law
- Michigan Journal of International Law
- New York University Journal of International Law & Policy
- Journal of Contemporary China
- The China Quarterly
- Journal of Chinese Political Science
- The Chinese Journal of International Politics
- Chinese Sociological Review
- Chinese Political Science Review
- Journal of Chinese Governance
- The China Journal
- -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:11, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- There is one other supporting academic source included in the article that you've missed. "The Uyghur Genocide: An Examination of China’s Breaches of the 1948 Genocide Convention" is a paper by the scholar Azeem Ibrahim and includes contributions from dozens of genocide scholars, international law experts and experts on Chinese ethnic policies. The article also discusses a legal opinion from the Essex Court Chambers authored in part by Alison Macdonald KC - an expert in human rights and international law - which found a "very credible case" for there being a genocide against Uyghurs. TRCRF22 (talk) 15:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have time in the near future to do the digging myself, but looking for papers published in the following journals concluding it is a genocide would help bolster the argument for inclusion (and should be added to the Persecution article):
- From the article Persecution of Uyghurs in China, the following scholarship is mentioned or cited as it being a case of genocide (as opposed to cultural genocide):
- I can't speak to the situation in Tibet, about which I am totally uninformed, but several experts have described the persecution of Uyghurs as meeting the standard of the Genocide Convention. While it's true that there are no (or very few) deaths, genocide can also be committed by "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group", and by "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group", both of which have been documented against Uyghurs. TRCRF22 (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- There is no factual basis for the claim that the Chinese government is attempting to exterminate Uyghurs or Tibetans. And that probably has a lot to do with why it's not included here. 2601:645:D00:4B80:7C84:2092:82F3:4E1D (talk) 07:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- I think it should be included just because several governments recognize it as a genocide. ScmHstu (talk) 21:07, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
[edit]Why is this genocide not included in the list? It was a large genocide of Poles, where around 100000 Poles were killed by UPA militias. On the list we have aslo have other genocides done by fasists militias/partisants (Genocides done by the Chetniks), so Volhynia genocide should be aslo included. Szturnek¿? 16:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
- You would need to show that this has been "classified as genocide by significant scholarship" per the inclusion criteria here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 13:37, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Based on the sources we have in the section Volhynia and Eastern Galicia of Genocides in history (World War I through World War II), while some Polish academics have said there are characteristics of genocide, they say that it was a campaign of ethnic cleansing. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- i think Snyder also calls it an act of genocide but not sure where—blindlynx 23:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Blindlynx just a quick 10 minutes check, but these three sources seem to have Snyder calling the killings of Jews in the area genocide, while calling the killing of Poles ethnic cleansing. Source 1, Source 2, Source 3. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Cdjp1 Ahh that tracks, sorry for the miss remembering—blindlynx 13:07, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Blindlynx no problem, there could be more sources out there, and I will eventually get to doing a more in depth check for Poles in Volhynia and Galicia, but this probably wont be till into next year. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:20, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Cdjp1 Ahh that tracks, sorry for the miss remembering—blindlynx 13:07, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Blindlynx just a quick 10 minutes check, but these three sources seem to have Snyder calling the killings of Jews in the area genocide, while calling the killing of Poles ethnic cleansing. Source 1, Source 2, Source 3. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- i think Snyder also calls it an act of genocide but not sure where—blindlynx 23:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- If we have Siege of Leningrad on the list, because some Russian historians claim, so Volhynia Massacre should be aslo added, because for exaple IPN claims officially that Volhynia was a genocide (link). Additionally, is ethnic cleansing significantly different from genocide? In particular, since the UPA murdered Poles on the spot, rather than deporting them. If this is a significant difference, then why do we have various NKVD operations on the list that are described as ethnic cleansing, not genocide? Szturnek¿? 13:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- I've gone through some of the original 2008 piece by Piotr Zając and the characterisation in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia of Genocides in history (World War I through World War II) was incorrect, so I've updated that. Zając concludes that the crimes were genocide, ideally we'd have more sources from other individuals. @Szturnek: if you can help finding/providing such sources, I'd see no issue in including Volhynia and Galicia. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:13, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Based on the sources we have in the section Volhynia and Eastern Galicia of Genocides in history (World War I through World War II), while some Polish academics have said there are characteristics of genocide, they say that it was a campaign of ethnic cleansing. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Genocide of germany 1940-1945
[edit]In total, Allied bombing campaigns conducted by the UK and US are estimated to have killed between 305,000 and 410,000 German civilians during World War II.
If Gaza genocide is included, so should this. 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 06:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- This is not how content decisions are made. Content decisions should be based on reliable sources and Wikipedia policy. Sean.hoyland (talk) 06:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- I can provide a source for the civillian death toll of ww2. Could you explain what you mean by 'Content decisions should be based on reliable sources and Wikipedia policy.'; does this not conform to policy? If so you must cite the policy. 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 09:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- You would need WP:reliable sources which explicitly call the bombings a genocide. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Sure. The statement "if A is included, then B should be included", where A=Gaza genocide and B=Allied bombing campaigns is an invalid decision procedure. The inclusion of B has no dependency on the inclusion of A, or vice versa. The inclusion test for this article is "classified as genocide by significant scholarship" and that test should be applied independently to A and B. So, you can see that providing a civilian death toll statistic wouldn't tell you anything about whether an event has been "classified as genocide by significant scholarship". Only sampling reliable sources can answer that question. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- It's an interesting thing to think about. In germany 300-400k civillians were bombed, and in Japan a similar number were killed by the atomic bombs. These were defensive wars fought by the US and UK. But in abscence of some journalist/scholar calling that Genocide, it isn't, and the bombing of gaza, which is a defensive war fought by Israel, is a genocide because a scholar did. Where is the explanation for why Gaza is a genocide in distinction to other strategic bombing such as in ww2? And why is the fact that international courts have not determined gaza to be a genocide taken into account? 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 09:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Fundamentally you're correct about a lot of this analysis, but ultimately it's WP:OR. Wikipedia includes things based on the prevalence of reliable sources. Sources currently describe Gaza as a genocide, but not Germany. — Czello (music) 10:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thinking about it probably won't help. I find not thinking about it, not caring and just following the policies and guidelines works better in Wikipedia. Having an expectation of consistency, that things should make sense, seems to be almost always wrong. Reliable sources just say what they say. The information doesn't need to be globally consistent or make sense. And like Czello says, Wikipedia content just reflects reliable source content. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:53, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Israel is not fighting a ‘defensive’ war, so that excuse doesn’t work. You don’t defend yourself against the people you occupy and oppress after they fight back The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 10:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, this is something like Whataboutism. NotSoTough (talk) 11:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- This seems like it. Also the way Gaza genocide is mentioned alongside this, it’s a common ‘argument’ I’ve seen people use to justify it by bringing up allied bombings of axis powers as if the two are remotely the same. Also him describing the war on Gaza as “defensive” even though Israel occupies Palestine and as a result default Palestinian resistance groups are the defenders by default The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 12:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, this is something like Whataboutism. NotSoTough (talk) 11:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- You are 100% correct but this doesn't show that any changes need to be made to the article itself, rather to Wikipedia alarmingly low standards for what should be considered a genocide.
- If 20 scholars from 1 university all publish articles in popular papers claiming an event is a genocide is that "significant"? What if the event happens in a country with freedom of the press so more debate around it happens, does that make it more of a genocide than if it were to occur in a dictatorship that doesn't allow those debates to take place?
- The criteria for which something counts as a genocide on this article needs a complete overhaul, ideally using 1 or 2 trusted, supernational committees to determine it rather than thousands of "scholars" out of which only a "significant" amount need to agree in order to make it an official genocide. Fyukfy5 (talk) 11:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as an 'official genocide'. And if your concern is that the current state of affairs means there is a risk of Israel being included, that is not a legitimate reason. You do not have the privileges to express your alarm about such things here. You do not have the extendedconfirmed privilege and therefore your speech is limited by the WP:ARBECR rule, as you presumably already know because you have been told "If you continue to violate WP:ECR...you will be blocked from editing." Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:00, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's an interesting thing to think about. In germany 300-400k civillians were bombed, and in Japan a similar number were killed by the atomic bombs. These were defensive wars fought by the US and UK. But in abscence of some journalist/scholar calling that Genocide, it isn't, and the bombing of gaza, which is a defensive war fought by Israel, is a genocide because a scholar did. Where is the explanation for why Gaza is a genocide in distinction to other strategic bombing such as in ww2? And why is the fact that international courts have not determined gaza to be a genocide taken into account? 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 09:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- I can provide a source for the civillian death toll of ww2. Could you explain what you mean by 'Content decisions should be based on reliable sources and Wikipedia policy.'; does this not conform to policy? If so you must cite the policy. 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 09:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- They both not the same. NotSoTough (talk) 09:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Proposing to remove Gaza Genocide from the list
[edit]This page has recently become a firestorm due to the inclusion of the accused Gaza Genocide into the page. The insertion of the Gaza Genocide into the page is as blatant of a NPOV violation that you could possibly get. The ninth word in the Gaza Genocide article is accused. Not committing, nor committed, accused. Even the ICJ, who is spearheading the investigation into Israel's action in Gaza, has not classified Israel's actions as genocidal. I propose to open a new discussion about the inclusion of Gaza Genocide on this page. Pyramids09 (talk) 08:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Based on this, and the recent increase in the number of non-extended confirmed interactions with the page, I assume off-site social media activity/coordination/influence operations etc. may be impacting the talk page. Apparently is extremely easy to manipulate susceptible people and send them to Wikipedia to do something. If it continues the talk page may need to be EC-protected. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- There has been a clear uptick in comments made on this talk page recently, all essentially saying the same thing. I agree that an EC protection might be necessary (given that one needs to be EC to participate here beyond basic edit requests). — Czello (music) 10:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Also, whether "This page has recently become a firestorm" or not is not relevant to our internal processes and discussions about content. Wikipedia editors make the content decisions based on our rules regardless of what is happening off-site. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- IOHANNVSVERVS, I reverted the strike out because Pyramids09 was granted extendedconfirmed on 2021-06-25, 67 days after registration. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, my striking their edit was a mistake. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Expressing sympathy and thanks to IOHANNVSVERVS. Even trying to keep up with this talk page is beyond me. Thank you for trying to keep some order here. I'd have probably just left WP for a while. CAVincent (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, my striking their edit was a mistake. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- IOHANNVSVERVS, I reverted the strike out because Pyramids09 was granted extendedconfirmed on 2021-06-25, 67 days after registration. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Euro-Med HRM, Law for Palestine, the UN, the Lemkin Institute, hundreds of scholars and thousands of lawyers have all described it as genocide. Just because the ICJ has not yet made a determination, which you know full well is because they are still hearing the case and so cannot deliver a verdict, does not mean we should exclude. TRCRF22 (talk) 16:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
This discussion is largely off-topic. Regarding the suggestion of Pyramids09 that we "open a new discussion about the inclusion of Gaza Genocide", I don't think that's a good idea as we just had a lengthy RfC on this question which was closed on Sept 3.[15] Also of note is the inclusion criteria of this list, which is stated in the lead of the article:
This list includes all events which have been classified as genocide by significant scholarship. As there are varying definitions of genocide, this list includes events around which there is ongoing scholarly debate over their classification as genocide and is not a list of only events which have a scholarly consensus to recognize them as genocide.s genocide.
-IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- If there is ongoing debate over whether it is a genocide, as is the case with Gaza, then it should not be included. Or separated into a list of alleged genocides. Wikipedia is there to spread common knowledge, not propaganda and things that are debated.
- I strongly Support deleting the Gaza genocide from the list. Epomis87 (talk) 09:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
This list includes all events which have been classified as genocide by significant scholarship.
Scholarly and expert opinions on the Gaza genocide
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Other scholars have offered opinions relating to the topic of incitement to genocide, but have not specifically drawn conclusions on the question of genocide itself.
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- -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- Every genocide is debated The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 09:51, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do not see any RFC with consensus to include it. Just saying. My very best wishes (talk) 23:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The RFC has been archived and can be found here. TRCRF22 (talk) 12:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you, I did not see it earlier. It was "include". As our page says "Israel has been accused of carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian people by a number of experts, governments, United Nations agencies...". It appears that the criteria for inclusion are changed. It is enough to have significant well-sourced accusations or claims of something to be a genocide, including claims by scholars. Then we can include a lot more items here. My very best wishes (talk) 21:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- In fact we should, but the task of having consistency across the various lists in this topic area seems to have slowed—blindlynx 23:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I chose to focus on adding entries to the genocides in history articles per new literature. I will get back to trying to harmonise the articles in line with their specific criteria, but for the next few months I have a huge amount of irl priorities. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- In fact we should, but the task of having consistency across the various lists in this topic area seems to have slowed—blindlynx 23:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you, I did not see it earlier. It was "include". As our page says "Israel has been accused of carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian people by a number of experts, governments, United Nations agencies...". It appears that the criteria for inclusion are changed. It is enough to have significant well-sourced accusations or claims of something to be a genocide, including claims by scholars. Then we can include a lot more items here. My very best wishes (talk) 21:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Nazi crimes against the Polish Nation
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The true number is accually 6 million. NotSoTough (talk) 11:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- 6 million includes the number of Jews, which is mentioned in The Holocaust entry. The 3 million here references the non-Jew ethnic Polish who were exterminated because the Nazis also viewed slavic people as subhuman The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- I noticed it right now. NotSoTough (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Source 1:
Tomasz Szarota; Wojciech Materski, eds. (2009). Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod dwiema okupacjami [Poland 1939–1945. Humans and Victims of Repression under two Occupations]. Warsaw: Institute of National Remembrance (IPN). Archived from the original on 23 March 2012.
- Janusz Kurtyka; Zbigniew Gluza. Preface.: "ze pod okupacja sowiecka zginelo w latach 1939–1941, a nastepnie 1944–1945 co najmniej 150 tys [...] Laczne straty smiertelne ludnosci polskiej pod okupacja niemiecka oblicza sie obecnie na ok. 2 770 000. [...] Do tych strat nalezy doliczyc ponad 100 tys. Polaków pomordowanych w latach 1942–1945 przez nacjonalistów ukrainskich (w tym na samym Wolyniu ok. 60 tys. osób [...] Liczba Zydów i Polaków zydowskiego pochodzenia, obywateli II Rzeczypospolitej, zamordowanych przez Niemców siega 2,7– 2,9 mln osób." Translation: "It must be assumed losses of at least 150.000 people during the Soviet occupation from 1939 to 1941 and again from 1944 to 1945 [...] The total fatalities of the Polish population under the German occupation are now estimated at 2,770,000. [...] To these losses should be added more than 100,000 Poles murdered in the years 1942–1945 by Ukrainian nationalists (including about 60,000 in Volhynia [...] The number of Jews and Poles of Jewish ethnicity, citizens of the Second Polish Republic, murdered by the Germans amounts to 2.7–2.9 million people." - Waldemar Grabowski. German and Soviet occupation. Fundamental issues.: "Straty ludnosci panstwa polskiego narodowosci ukrainskiej sa trudne do wyliczenia," Translation: "The losses of ethnic Poles of Ukrainian nationality are difficult to calculate."
NotSoTough (talk) 12:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Source 2:
- R. Miller, Phyllis (1995). "Gdansk". In Ring, Trudy; Watson, Noelle; Schellinger, Paul (eds.). International Dictionary of Historic Places. Vol. 2 Northern Europe. New York, USA: Routledge. p. 293. ISBN 1-884964-01-X. NotSoTough (talk) 12:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Source 3: East, Roger; Pontin, Jolyon (2016). Revolution and Change in Central and Eastern Europe (Revised ed.). New York, NY: Bloomsbury. p. 41. ISBN 978-1-4742-8749-4. NotSoTough (talk) 12:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- J. Goldberg, Harold (2019). Daily Life in Nazi-Occupied Europe. California, USA: ABC-Clio, LLC. pp. 16, 26. ISBN 978-1-4408-5911-3. NotSoTough (talk) 12:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Source 3: East, Roger; Pontin, Jolyon (2016). Revolution and Change in Central and Eastern Europe (Revised ed.). New York, NY: Bloomsbury. p. 41. ISBN 978-1-4742-8749-4. NotSoTough (talk) 12:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Not done I can not access your first and second sources directly.
- Source 1, per the quote provided, it acknowledges and specifies how 3 million were non-Jews, and 3 million were Jews, in line with the entry which mentions the 3 million Polish Jews being killed as part of the Holocaust.
- Source 3 (as with the quote for Source 1) acknowledges and specifies how 3 million were non-Jews, and 3 million were Jews, in line with the entry which mentions the 3 million Polish Jews being killed as part of the Holocaust.
- Source 4 (as with the quote for Source 1) acknowledges and specifies how 3 million were non-Jews, and 3 million were Jews, in line with the entry which mentions the 3 million Polish Jews being killed as part of the Holocaust.
- With these 3 sources considered, the change is not done. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- I accually got these sources from the article Nazi war crimes in occupied Poland during World War II. NotSoTough (talk) 19:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- It was saying 6 million but i dont know. NotSoTough (talk) 19:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Unnecessary information under 'Gaza Genocide'
[edit]The entry for the Gaza genocide has a bunch of stats about types of harm done other than death, which are included in no other entry. These include people 'under rubble', 'injuries', 'Damage to or destruction of homes and buildings', 'acute food insecurity' and 'internally displaced persons'. No other genocide on this list includes information like that. It is all about death toll. For consistency I think that information should be removed. Alternatively we can fill up all the entries with such information. LastDodo (talk) 13:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Guys, I am going to remove these additional bits of information from this entry that have no parallel in the other entries, unless someone can defend their inclusion. I will give it a few more days for someone to respond before going ahead. LastDodo (talk) 11:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- For what little its worth i see no issue in removing the Information highlighted. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:26, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I feel that the number of people buried under the rubble at least is worthy of inclusion, as they are all almost certainly dead and thus can be considered victims of the genocide. A change in wording (i.e. "presumed dead under rubble") might be necessary to communicate this. TRCRF22 (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- That seems reasonable. At some point the numbers will be confirmed, but until then there's nothing wrong with including that as a proxy. I will leave it a few more days for comments and then go ahead. LastDodo (talk) 12:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I have made the change, leaving in the number under rubble and the estimate of the total proportion of pre-war Gaza population killed. LastDodo (talk) 17:47, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 November 2024
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Rawalpindi Massacre of 1947 should be included. Allegedly the sitting representatives had a hand in the events, and it was aimed only at specific groups in the city. Also, it occurred way before the Partition of India. Xyznwa (talk) 17:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Not done. You would need to show that this has been "classified as genocide by significant scholarship" per the inclusion criteria here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:18, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Extended confirmed edit request on 29 November 2024
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Change link for "Libyan Arabs" in the lead from "Libyan genocide" to "Libyan genocide" as the former is now a disambiguation page. Meluiel (talk) 20:33, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- Done. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:12, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! Meluiel (talk) 23:02, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Edit Request to add the Hamas-led Oct. 7th attacks
[edit]Add the Hamas led October 7th attacks to the page. There's an entire Wikipedia entry on the allegations of genocide against Hamas so clearly there is significant scholarship that states as much. Fyukfy5 (talk) 11:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- If this counts as genocide then unfortunately the number of genocides throughout history must number in the tens of thousands if not more. Since the Wikipedia article is only called 'allegations of genocide', I would be against including this one at present. LastDodo (talk) 14:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- As per the extensive conversation above, all that is needed for a genocide to be added to this article is that there be "significant scholarship" accusing it of genocide. That certainly exists for the Hamas led October 7th attacks.
- Im open to arguments against but "if we add that one we'd need to add a lot more" is an argument against the low standards for genocide that Wikipedia defined, not one against this specific case. After all, most genocides are merely "allegations of genocide" since there's no official body that decided what is or isn't genocide, at least not one that's used as a criterion for this specific list. Fyukfy5 (talk) 18:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Fyukfy5: it would be helpful if you can provide the references for or links to the scholarship showing significant assessment, it would greatly speed up the process of adding the event to the list. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:58, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- I will post what I think are the most relevant sources but I also implore any confirmed editors to take a look for themselves in the Allegations of genocide in the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel under the "Academic and legal discourse" tab.
- Anyway:
- https://archive.today/2023.10.19-000330/https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd4lrsDRg3HbJqoAf0BlAe7BHJuzpQB_Le27Iureq9vpCoBkw/viewform
- https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-is-never-justifiable-israel-and-hamas-in-gaza
- https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4388533-israel-is-not-committing-genocide-but-hamas-is/
- As I said there are many more but these are just a few. I think the first is the most relevant for being "significant scholarship" seeing as over 200 scholars co-signed the letter accusing the attacks as genocide. Fyukfy5 (talk) 20:15, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Scholarship. While these could be used in support of scholarship, scholarship is the requirement. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Would the open letter nor qualify as scholarship? Fyukfy5 (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- A google forms open letter is not scholarship. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then what would be? I'm happy to look for things but I don't know what I'm looking for Fyukfy5 (talk) 23:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Pieces that are published through academic avenues, so journals and books by academic publishers for example. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 11:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-024-00608-w
- https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003497417-2/holocaust-genocide-october-7-philip-spencer
- https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0406/chapters/10.11647/obp.0406.04 (p. 109, p. 113-114 at least)
- Here are another 3 scholarly sources, unfortunately these are a lot harder to find than simply articles written by scholars. Fyukfy5 (talk) 14:00, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- First will be hard to convince people with considering the credentials of the authors and the journal not being related to relevant fields of genocide study. The second is the sort of source needed, a relevant academic stating it is a case of genocide in a book from a respected academic publisher. The third, while from an academic with relevant credentials to this case, doesn't actually state it is a case of genocide in the author's own voice, but he instead refers to others saying it is genocide (p. 109), though p. 113's
ignoring what could rationally be depicted as the genocidal nature of Hamas’s 7 October attacks themselves
statement I would argue is enough to be accepted. For the book chapters it is interesting how the majority of their pages deal less with assessing October 7, and more with seeking to disprove potential genocide in Israel's retaliation (though Spencer goes much further seeking to argue nothing in the history of Palestinians could ever be considered genocide). -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)- I'm not a confirmed editor so I can make an RfC or anything but I hope this becomes the launchpad for a robust conversation on whether the Oct. 7th attacks should be added to this list Fyukfy5 (talk) 16:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- First will be hard to convince people with considering the credentials of the authors and the journal not being related to relevant fields of genocide study. The second is the sort of source needed, a relevant academic stating it is a case of genocide in a book from a respected academic publisher. The third, while from an academic with relevant credentials to this case, doesn't actually state it is a case of genocide in the author's own voice, but he instead refers to others saying it is genocide (p. 109), though p. 113's
- Pieces that are published through academic avenues, so journals and books by academic publishers for example. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 11:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then what would be? I'm happy to look for things but I don't know what I'm looking for Fyukfy5 (talk) 23:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- A google forms open letter is not scholarship. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Would the open letter nor qualify as scholarship? Fyukfy5 (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Scholarship. While these could be used in support of scholarship, scholarship is the requirement. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Fyukfy5: it would be helpful if you can provide the references for or links to the scholarship showing significant assessment, it would greatly speed up the process of adding the event to the list. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:58, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @LastDodo: That's not the inclusion criteria. Regardless of what articles are titled on WP, the inclusion criteria is
classified as genocide by significant scholarship
, for the October 7 attack, there has been statements by good chunk of scholars denouncing the attack as genocidal, but I am not up to date with what scholarship has been published on it yet. If there issignificant scholarship
, either by number or weight, it can, and should be included. As has been elucidated both in the current legal definition of genocide, as well as a multitude of definitions developed by scholars that are more robust analytical tools, there can be very few, or even no deaths, and an event can still be a case of genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC)- I don't dispute that, and don't have strong enough opinions here to argue it. My concern is only that the term genocide becomes so expansive as to lose all its moral weight. I want to avoid the situation where someone says 'x is genocide!' and someone else replies 'so what, genocides happen every year'.
- Wikipedia's policy is unfortunately flawed, as scholarship is not consistent. For example, consider this passage from the lede of the article Dungan Revolt (1862-1877): The population reduction of Hui in Shaanxi was particularly severe. According to research by modern historians, at least 4 million Hui were in Shaanxi before the revolt, but only 20,000 remained in the province afterwards, with most of the Hui either killed in massacres and reprisals by government and militia forces, or deported out of the province. For example, on one occasion where 700,000 to 800,000 Hui from Shaanxi were deported to Gansu, most were killed along the way from thirst, starvation, and massacres by the militia escorting them, with only a few thousand surviving.
- Yet, I as far as I know there is not even an argument about classifying this as genocide, let alone 'significant scholarship' doing so, so it doesn't get included on the list. LastDodo (talk) 11:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- As stated previously, numbers of dead are not the metric, either as a gross/raw number, or as a percentage, per a plethora of scholars and legal rulings. Concern for the application of the term genocide (especially in an article like this) requires action outside of WP, as WP does not determine what is or is not a case of genocide, RS do. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure. I accept the policy. Nothing can be done about it. I am trying to speak to the human here, not the Wikipedia editor, and say the WP policy is flawed. If a Wikipedia article said 'there were X million of people A, but people B deliberately exterminated them all in 12 months', but the word genocide was not mentioned in the sources, it wouldn't make this list. Meanwhile the Osage Indian Murders do make the list - even though they involved killing at a rate of fewer than 2 people per month, and as far as I can see no intent to exterminate - because academics write about them because there were in the USA. Which seems like a flaw in policy to me, the result of which is that this list is only so useful to the average reader. LastDodo (talk) 15:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- As stated previously, numbers of dead are not the metric, either as a gross/raw number, or as a percentage, per a plethora of scholars and legal rulings. Concern for the application of the term genocide (especially in an article like this) requires action outside of WP, as WP does not determine what is or is not a case of genocide, RS do. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - User:Fyukfy5 isn't remotely extended confirmed, and in my opinion has been indulged far too much in even having a conversation. The initial comment maybe met WP:ARBECR but didn't merit this distraction. Better to just ignore and possibly remove further comments from this user. CAVincent (talk) 04:11, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- So I'm allowed to make edit requests but when a confirmed editor asks me to elaborate I can't? Fyukfy5 (talk) 05:51, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
The Tamil genocide?
[edit]Shouldn't the Tamil genocide be added? Crocusfleur (talk) 15:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. If its not a genocide, then the title of that article should be changed. LastDodo (talk) 12:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Done—blindlynx 16:22, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Add Genocide in Tigray (It has an article)
[edit]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_in_Tigray Add this genocide to the list? Vanisherman (talk) 05:37, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see why not. According to that article, at least 162,000 people were killed, and perhaps as many as 600,000. Anyone object? LastDodo (talk) 13:25, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Done—blindlynx 18:17, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Pre-emptive conversation: On the inclusion of genocidal massacres
[edit]I can see this being a potential issue that we will eventually have to make a determination on and that is whether something assessed in significant scholarship
as a genocidal massacre
as opposed to a genocide
, where it is not part of of a broader campaign/instance of genocide (as recognised in significant scholarship
), should be included in the list? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:07, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Intuitively i think there is a difference between '(isolated/single) genocidal acts' or 'genocidal massacres' and 'genocides' specifically that the later is a campaign of the former. I don't think any naive or intuitive definition of genocide really applies to just one genocidal act. That said we should follow sources and if something is described by scholars as a 'genocidal act/massacre/etc..' but not explicitly as a 'genocide' then it probably doesn't belong here—blindlynx 14:40, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Include Soviet-Afghan War and Hazara genocide
[edit]Both events have numerous sources declaring them as genocide: Soviet Afghan War
(copied from Genocides in history (1946 to 1999) article) Numerous scholars and academics have stated that the Soviet military perpetrated a genocidal campaign of extermination against Afghan people during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.[1][2] Afghan president Mohammed Daoud Khan was deposed and murdered in 1978's Saur Revolution by the Khalqist faction of People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA), who subsequently established their own government, the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan.[3]
What followed the April coup of 1978 was severe repression of a kind previously unknown in Afghanistan. American journalist and CNAS member Robert D. Kaplan argued that, while Afghanistan had been "poor" and "underdeveloped", it was a "relatively civilized" country that "had never known very much political repression" until 1978.[4] Political scientist Barnett Rubin wrote, "Khalq used mass arrests, torture, and secret executions on a scale Afghanistan had not seen since the time of Abdul Rahman Khan, and probably not even then".[5] After gaining power, the Khalqists unleashed a campaign of "red terror", killing more than 27,000 people in the Pul-e-Charkhi prison, prior to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979.[4]
After Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, deposing and killing Hafizullah Amin in Operation Storm-333 and installing Babrak Karmal as General Secretary, the brutality of communists intensified. The army of the Soviet Union killed large numbers of Afghans, attempting to suppress resistance from the Afghan mujahideen.[6] Numerous mass murders were perpetrated by the Soviet Army during the summer of 1980. Soviet forces also launched chemical attacks against civilian populations.[7] During the 1980s, the communist PDPA regime also killed and tortured thousands of individuals in the Pul-e-Charkhi prison.[8]
One notorious atrocity was the Laghman massacre in April 1985 in the villages of Kas-Aziz-Khan, Charbagh, Bala Bagh, Sabzabad, Mamdrawer, Haider Khan and Pul-i-Joghi[9] in the Laghman Province. At least 500 civilians were killed.[10] In the Kulchabat, Bala Karz and Mushkizi massacre which was committed on 12 October 1983, the Red Army gathered 360 people at the village square and shot them, including 20 girls and over a dozen older people.[11][12][13] The Rauzdi massacre and Padkhwab-e Shana massacre were also documented.[14] Approximately 2 million Afghan civilians were killed by the Soviet military and its proxies during the Soviet invasion and occupation.[15]
Soviet Air Forces perpetrated scorched-earth strategy during its bombing campaigns, which consisted of carpet bombing of cities and indiscriminate attacks that destroyed entire villages. Millions of land-mines (often camouflaged as kids' playthings) were planted by Soviet military across Afghanistan. Around 90% of Kandahar's inhabitants were forcibly expelled, as a result of Soviet atrocities during the war.[16] Everything was the target in the country, from cities, villages, up to schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, factories and orchards. Soviet tactics included targeting areas which showed support for the Afghan resistance, and forcing the populace to flee the rural regions where the communists had no territorial control. Half of Afghanistan's 24,000 villages and most of the rural facilities were destroyed by the end of the war.[17][18] During the Soviet invasion and occupation between 1979 and 1992, more than 20% of the Afghan population were focibly displaced as refugees.[18][19]
Historians, academics and scholars have widely described the Soviet military campaign in Afghanistan as a genocide. These include American professor Samuel Totten,[20] Australian professor Paul R. Bartrop,[20] political scientist Anthony James Joyce,[21] scholars from Yale Law School including W. Michael Reisman and Charles Norchi,[22] writer and journalist Rosanne Klass,[23] Canadian professor Adam Jones[24] and historian Mohammed Kakar.[25] American anthropologist Louis Dupree stated that Afghans were victims of "migratory genocide" implemented by Soviet military.[16]
Sources for Hazara genocide (19th century) Zamani, Ezzatullah (September 2019). "The 'Genocide of the Hazaras' in Afghanistan from 1884 to 1905 and subsequent genocidal campaigns and target killings against them in the 21st century"
Hakimi, Mehdi J. (25 July 2023). "The Afghan State and the Hazara Genocide". Harvard Human Rights Journal. 37.
Ibrahimi, Niamatullah (1 October 2017). The Hazaras and the Afghan State: Rebellion, Exclusion and the Struggle for Recognition. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-1-84904-981-8.
https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Committee/441/FAAE/Reports/RP13256076/faaerp27/faaerp27-e.pdf
https://civilrights.org/blog/the-hazara-genocide-and-systemic-discrimination-in-afghanistan/ Vanisherman (talk) 14:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- ^ Kakar 1997 :[page needed] "The Afghans are among the latest victims of genocide by a superpower."
- ^ Reisman, W. Michael; Norchi, Charles H. "Genocide and the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF) on 26 October 2016. Retrieved 7 January 2017.
According to widely reported accounts, substantial programmes of depopulation have been conducted in these Afghan provinces: Ghazni, Nagarhar, Lagham, Qandahar, Zabul, Badakhshan, Lowgar, Paktia, Paktika and Kunar...There is considerable evidence that genocide has been committed against the Afghan people by the combined forces of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan and the Soviet Union.
- ^ Rubin, Barnett R. (2002). The Fragmentation of Afghanistan: State Formation and Collapse in the International System (2nd ed.). New Haven (CT): Yale University Press. pp. 104–105. ISBN 978-0-300-09519-7.
- ^ a b D. Kaplan, Robert (2001). Soldiers of God: With Islamic Warriors in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Vintage Books. p. 115. ISBN 1-4000-3025-0.
- ^ Rubin, Barnett R. (2002). The Fragmentation of Afghanistan: State Formation and Collapse in the International System (2nd ed.). New Haven (CT): Yale University Press. p. 115. ISBN 978-0-300-09519-7.
- ^ Kakar 1997 :[page needed] "The Afghans are among the latest victims of genocide by a superpower. Large numbers of Afghans were killed to suppress resistance to the army of the Soviet Union, which wished to vindicate its client regime and realize its goal in Afghanistan."
- ^ Kakar 1997 :[page needed] "Incidents of the mass killing of noncombatant civilians were observed in the summer of 1980...the Soviets felt it necessary to suppress defenseless civilians by killing them indiscriminately, by compelling them to flee abroad, and by destroying their crops and means of irrigation, the basis of their livelihood. The dropping of booby traps from the air, the planting of mines, and the use of chemical substances, though not on a wide scale, were also meant to serve the same purpose...they undertook military operations in an effort to ensure speedy submission: hence the wide use of aerial weapons, in particular helicopter gunships or the kind of inaccurate weapons that cannot discriminate between combatants and noncombatants."
- ^ Sarwary, Bilal (27 February 2006). "Kabul's prison of death". BBC News. Archived from the original on 27 February 2024.
- ^ "Diplomats report massacre in Afghanistan". United Press International. 14 May 1985. Archived from the original on 3 October 2022. Retrieved 24 August 2020.
- ^ Bellamy, Alex J. (2012). Massacres and Morality: Mass Atrocities in an Age of Civilian Immunity. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 281. ISBN 9780199288427.
- ^ Bernstein, Richard (1 March 1985). "U.N. Rights Study Finds Afghan Abuses by Soviets". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 11 September 2020. Retrieved 17 April 2021.
- ^ "UN report attacks Afghan massacres". The Sydney Morning Herald. Sydney, New South Wales. 4 March 1985. p. 7. Retrieved 17 April 2021.
- ^ Ermacora, Felix (1985). "Report on the situation of human rights in Afghanistan / prepared by the Special Rapporteur, Felix Ermacora, in accordance with Commission on Human Rights resolution 1984/55". United Nations Commission on Human Rights. Geneva: 31. Retrieved 17 April 2021.
- ^ "Tears, Blood and Cries. Human Rights in Afghanistan Since the Invasion 1979–1984" (PDF). Human Rights Watch. 1984. pp. 37–38. Archived from the original (PDF) on 16 November 2023. Retrieved 6 July 2021.
- ^ Klass, Rosanne (1994). The Widening Circle of Genocide. Transaction Publishers. p. 129. ISBN 9781412839655.
During the intervening fourteen years of Communist rule, an estimated 1.5 to 2 million Afghan civilians were killed by Soviet forces and their proxies- the four Communist regimes in Kabul, and the East Germans, Bulgarians, Czechs, Cubans, Palestinians, Indians and others who assisted them. These were not battle casualties or the unavoidable civilian victims of warfare. Soviet and local Communist forces seldom attacked the scattered guerrilla bands of the Afghan Resistance except, in a few strategic locales like the Panjsher valley. Instead they deliberately targeted the civilian population, primarily in the rural areas.
- ^ a b Borshchevskaya, Anna (2022). "2: The Soviet Union in the Middle East and the Afghanistan Intervention". Putin's War in Syria. London, UK: I. B. Tauris. p. 24. ISBN 978-0-7556-3463-7.
- ^ Goodson, Larry P. (2011). Afghanistan's Endless War: State Failure, Regional Politics, and the Rise of the Taliban. University of Washington Press. pp. 94, 95. ISBN 978-0-295-80158-2. OCLC 1026403863.
- ^ a b Blood-Stained Hands: Past Atrocities in Kabul and Afghanistan's Legacy of Impunity (Report). Human Rights Watch. 6 July 2005. Archived from the original on 24 February 2024. Retrieved 11 April 2020.
- ^ "Refugees From Afghanistan: The world's largest single refugee group" (PDF). www.refworld.org. 16 November 1999. Archived (PDF) from the original on 11 November 2020. Retrieved 11 December 2021.
- ^ a b Bartrop, Paul R.; Totten, Samuel (2007). Dictionary of Genocide: A-L. ABC-CLIO. pp. 3, 4. ISBN 978-0-313-34642-2. OCLC 437198304.
- ^ James Joes, Anthony (2010). "4: Afghanistan: End of the Red Empire". Victorious Insurgencies: Four Rebellions that Shaped Our World. University Press of Kentucky. pp. 211, 213. ISBN 978-0-8131-2614-2.
- ^ Reisman, W. Michael; Norchi, Charles. "Genocide and the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan" (PDF). pp. 4–6. Archived from the original (PDF) on 26 October 2016. Retrieved 7 January 2017.
- ^ Klass, Rosanne (2018). https://books.google.com/books?id=I2chrSJCW54C&pg=PA129. In Charny, Israel W. (ed.). The Widening Circle of Genocide: Genocide – A Critical Bibliographic Review. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-29406-5. OCLC 1032709528.
{{cite book}}
:|chapter-url=
missing title (help); Unknown parameter|chaGenocides in history (1946 to 1999)Genocides in history (1946 to 1999)pter=
ignored (help) - ^ Jones, Adam (2011). "2: State and Empire; War and Revolution". Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction (2nd ed.). New York, NY: Routledge. pp. 77–79. ISBN 978-0-415-48618-7.
- ^ Kakar 1997, p. 215.
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