Talk:List of foxhound packs of the United Kingdom/Archive 1

Archive 1

The not exactly thin red line

This page is rather sad.

Other than the obvious wave of red links, there is a small scattering of web links, which does not conform to WP policy, verging as it does on the MySpace model.

Now, if the links lead to sites informative on the subject, I might be inclined to pass by (I always adhere to WP rules when I add material, but WP can not make me remove material). The one thing that all the sites seem to share is complete denial about the ban on hunting. Because they are not reflective of the current procedure of hunting, they are not a significant source of information on the subject.

I was a hunt saboteur for a year, and one of the things I made sure I knew was exactly what the replacements for hunts that kill a fox were (drag hunting), and why those were actually a better hunt than the fox itself:

• Foxes do not respect private property. Foxhunts can end up being stalled, or property damage caused, because a fox decides that a garden full of glass cloches looks like a great place to hide.
• Foxes have a lot of time on their hands. Foxhunts again become stalled when a fox runs into a thick copse; 'beaters' (on foot) must go into the copse and scare the fox out while the riders twiddle their thumbs.
• Foxes, however smart, are not as smart as a human. Drag hunts again have an advantage here, as a clever human can lay a more complex and challenging trail than a fox.

I suggest that until the foxhunting community embraces drag, trail and bloodhound hunting, those red links will stay that way, and the outside links will not be worthy of inclusion on WP. Anarchangel (talk) 21:56, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

You appear to have gone a little off topic - this page is for discussion of the article (or list in this case) not about the subject itself. I believe that almost all the UK hunts with meet WP:V fairly easily as they will have multiple external, verifiable sources related to them (not least HSA, LACS etc!) but nobody has yet got round to adding them. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 06:47, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. The outside links I mentioned were 77% (10 of 13) of the link content; I trimmed them down to 50% (3 of 6). I hope you will appreciate that their content has been made a part of this page by linking to them. I certainly hope there will be sources. The article is getting close to its first birthday. Anarchangel (talk) 10:54, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I have no issue with removing the external links, and the action has reminded me that a lot of these hunt pages need creating, but rather my point was that WP talk is not a place for your own diatribe on the rights or wrongs of hunting. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 12:09, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that community policy stops us posting a link to an official site on a topic, so I think it is open for debate. As a fellow editor, I propose we keep them as they provide an alternative to the redlink, to find information like the history and location of a pack (that is if a modern browser can actually display them!), and to allow a future editor to create an article and move the link there. Meanwhile, as an interested observer of UK affairs, I can't help thinking that if an official hunt site fails to mention the current lawful procedure, that gives me a fascinating clue as to how they might behave in practice. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:53, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I was surprised to find this page with so many red links on it and have just had the satisfaction of turning one of them to blue. Perhaps at the moment many people are uncomfortable about writing articles to do with fox hunting, but if that's so it doesn't help the encyclopedia, as the history of individual hunts, and especially fox hunts, is a significant part of the local history of much of the UK and Ireland over the last two hundred years or so. I don't see any real harm in leaving these external links within the body of the list, apart from the 'Our History' link alongside Berkeley Hunt, which surely we can do without as we have the beginnings of an article. Perhaps it would look less odd if any such links were moved down into footnotes? Moonraker2 (talk) 01:05, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Or put into a table format? Just a thought, I'm not volunteering. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 12:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Owain is correct - this talk page is not the place for discussion on the rights and wrongs of fox hunting. However, I don't think the external links are not appropriate as they were (remaining 3 removed by me); One is on the article page for that hunt (blue link) and the other two had generic titles. Since those two hunts have websites, it seems likely that if someone wants to take the time, suitable sources are available for creation of those pages, and the website links could then be added to those articles. Bertcocaine (talk) 16:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Just a thought: Is this Article potentially libellous?

Given that hunting foxes with hounds is currently illegal in England, Scotland and Wales, isn't a list of 'fox hunts' in those areas at least potentially libellous? I'm sure a list of 'house-breakers' would be.

BTW, though I'm not particularly keen on the idea fox-hunting myself, I make the above suggestion on the basis of the articles' title, not the topic it discusses, and I hope any further input is made on the same basis. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

For that reason, the intro does say that they are fox hunts, or pursuing similar sports such as drag hunting due to the ban. I think that this is a case of self-identification - it is what they call themselves. This is discussed in the fox hunting article itself too. I'm not sure that any alternative springs to mind, but happy to consider if you have one. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 17:54, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

They seem to self-identify as 'hunts', rather than fox hunts. Maybe the intro could be reworded slightly, but I think the problem is actually in the title - maybe 'List of hunts in the United Kingdom' would be better? 'List of fox hunts and drag hunts...' would perhaps be clearer, but Wikipedia policy seems to be to discourage 'and' in article titles. This needs a bit of thought. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Point taken, but this isn't actually a list including drag hunts, as that is a separate activity. It is only that some of them are drag hunting whilst the legislation prevents full fox hunting. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 21:29, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

How about this for the intro: "The following is a partial list of packs who participate in fox hunting, and of former fox hunting packs that now participate in a variant known as drag hunting due to limitations imposed by legislation, in the United Kingdom". I think that this is a little clearer. I think that a brief summary of the legal situation might also clarify things.

Is 'pack' a synonym for 'hunt'? I'm not sure of the terminology. If it isn't, the intro needs to clarify this too. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:41, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, mostly happy, although not all drag hunt, some do legal hunting by flushing to guns or birds or another use of legal exemption. Also, at the risk of self trumpet blowing, I think the work i did earlier to complete the list probably means the word 'partial' is now unnecessary. And as for your question, in this context, pack and hunt can be used pretty much interchangeably. So, on that basis maybe "The following is a list of packs in the United Kingdom who participate in fox hunting, or who undertake alternatives such as drag hunting due to limitations imposed by legislation." What do you think? OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 21:47, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

That is much clearer than my intro, feel free to change it (not that you need my say-so anyway). I think that a brief summary of the legal position (with a link to sources describing the relevant legislation), might be a good idea though, under each country header, in a similar way to the Northern Ireland one: "Northern Ireland remains the only part of the UK where fox hunting is legal". AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:38, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I've made the change now myself -I'd forgotten about this article. I'll see about adding something (links at least) re. legislation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I've now added links to relevant Wikipedia articles on legislation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)