Talk:List of enclaves and exclaves/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Organization

I bashed this together out of Enclave and Exclave, removing repetitions. I fully expect disagreement with some of my classifications, so go to it! —Tamfang 05:09, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the bashing. Putting the lists in a separate article has been needed for some time. --Jonrock 22:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't this list be a bit more interesting and useful if it was sorted by continent and country rather than "category"? Ebben 02:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

No. Hope this helps. —Tamfang (talk) 00:25, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Winn Parish, Louisiana

This seems extremely dubious. Under one of the main legal theories employed at the time of the U.S. Civil War, secession is illegal, so Louisiana never seceded, and thus Winn Parish remained part of Louisiana along with the rest of the state. Under another of the main legal theories, states have the right to secede, as they are sovereign entities. Counties, however, do not, so Winn Parish, under this view, remains a part of the sovereign state of Louisiana, and joins the Confederacy with it. Note that the former theory was certainly under operation in counties in a similar situation - the northwestern counties of Virginia, which were, until 1863, recognized to be part of "Virginia," which was still in the union. I think this example should be removed. john k 16:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

If pre-existing sovereign status is necessary to secession, the Declaration of Independence is void. I don't think any of the parties in 1861 would subscribe to such a theory, though Lincoln tried to have it both ways. —Tamfang 17:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Caber Kalesi

Caber Kalesi (Fort Caber, pronounced Jaber) is a Turkish enclave within Syria. The monument is considered part of Turkey see: tr:Caber Kalesi Ybgursey 05:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing in the original treaty (in the very short provision dealing with this) that says that the land under the monument is sovereign Turkish territory. Hence, when the monument was moved to make way for Lake Assad, it is not very likely that a piece of Turkey was submerged by the lake.

Jeff in CA 15:59, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Northwest Angle

I'm wondering if the Northwest Angle would be considered an enclave? It is a part of Minnesota that is only accessible by the rest of the U.S. by going through Canada. I'm not sure if it is an enclave because it is also accessible by boat. Point Roberts, Washington is a similar situation. --66.130.0.153 14:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Both are listed under "practical enclaves". —Tamfang 17:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

But wouldn't it be considered an Inaccessible District? It is not on exclave/enclave because there is no break in the US territorial waters between the Northwest Angel and the mainland, so it technically still touches the US, but you most go through Canada to reach it by land.

No, Practical enclaves and exclaves means areas that are connect to the motherland (usually by water) but which road access goes through a second country. Inaccessible Districts are areas that are connect to the motherland (usually by land) but only easily accessible by going through a second country (See Hyder, AK as an example). It is a slight difference but does exist. -- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 19:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey Shocktm, can you put these definitions in the article? I didn't know what the distinction was until now. --Lasunncty 15:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I understand why it is called a pratical Exclave as opposed to an inaccessible district, but in the article it is stated that the Nortwest Angle is a penninsula, when it only has water on the south and east of it, the west is a border of Canadian land. The extreme southern portion of it could possibly be construed as a penninsula(even though it sticks out less then a mile into the water), but I don't think that qualifies the whole thing as a penninsula. Also, I am new to this editing and discussion thing on Wiki, if you could tell me how to post using atleast an "anonymous" tag with my IP address, i'd be very appreciative. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.8.94.87 (talk) 07:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Too Many Examples!

It seems to me that it is not necessary to list every enclave/exclave that exists, no matter how insignificant. Perhaps we could limit the list to first- and second-level administrative divisions. --Lasunncty 19:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that these lists are starting to cruft-ify. I note that enclaves-that-are-not-exclaves are, at the municipality level, very common, and perhaps these should be axed from the lists unless they're particularly notable. For example, Lesotho and San Marino are clearly notable. The status of a large and well-known enclave-but-not-exclave such as Beverly Hills, California as an enclave within Los Angeles, California is debatably notable enough for the list. But enclaves-that-are-not-exclaves such as Narberth, Pennsylvania within Lower Merion Township, Pennsylvania (which, I confess, I added myself) would not make the cut under my proposed standard.

Exclaves are, to my mind, more interesting.Spikebrennan 22:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

for what little it's worth, I agree with Spikebrennan and have no objection to pruning the little-cities-in-big-cities. —Tamfang 04:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

If it's the case, it could be useful to keep the information collected in a section called maybe "minor enclaves and exclaves". It would be a pity to throw away all that's been collected... --Adriano 14:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this supposed to be a list page? john k 15:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not we keep the "minor" ones, perhaps we should sort the list according to the administrative level. (ie, "first-level subnational enclaves", etc.) Then at least the "major" ones would all be together for easy access. --Lasunncty 04:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree on that. john k 14:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

We might end up breaking this list into several sub-list articles, just for the sake of readability... — Poulpy 09:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Practical En/Exclaves and Inaccessible Districts

I have cleaned up the true en/exclave lists, but before I (or someone else) work on the final sections, I think we need clear definitions of the terms "Practical En/Exclaves" and "Inaccessible Districts." More importantly, are they real terms, or just "consolation prizes" for pieces of land that don't quite qualify above (in which case these sections could be deleted)? Finally, if an area is listed above, should it be listed below as well? --Lasunncty 05:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Pene-enclave and pene-exclave are formal terms for these concepts, so I've modified the article to use them.

Nbarth (email) (talk) 00:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

From what I can tell, these two terms have almost identical meanings. I propose combining these two sections (or removing them entirely) unless a clear definition of both terms can be provided. There has not been much action on this since I made my post here almost four years ago (!). --Lasunncty (talk) 00:45, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Please define pene en/exclave in the article or link to another Wiki article that does so.2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:DC57:79F9:D1BD:E702 (talk) 21:29, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

United Nations headquarters

This might be an extreme example, but the headquarters of the United Nations, located in New York City, is considered international territory, but is completely surrounded by the rest of the city. Anyone agree to adding this on the list? --Geopgeop 13:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The land on which the headquarters is built is still under soverignty of the United States ; its extraterritorial status doesn't differ from regular embassies. — Poulpy 13:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Roosevelt Campobello International Park

Does anyone know if Roosevelt Campobello International Park qualifies as an en/exclave?

I do not think it is. While both countries run the park, I doubt that Canadian sovereignty was given up when the park was started. (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 03:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone modify it: Rincón de Anchuras

Rincón de Anchuras is part of the spanish province of Ciudad Real, that is between the provinces of Toledo and Badajoz:

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Note that this fact (also requested in Section 17 below) had been shown in the list at some time much prior to this date.

Jeff in CA 18:47, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

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Omaha Airport

Is Omaha, Nebraska Airport a sub-national en/exclave since it appears you need to go through Iowa to get there?

No it is not. You can get to the airport form the rest of Nebraska without going thru Carter Lake, Iowa - The most convenient way may be thru there, but it is not the only way. Carter Lake, Iowa is listed here under Subnational "practical" enclaves and exclaves. (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 03:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

English/Scottish practical enclaves

Found a couple, as listed. Accessed via Multimap. Can anyone do a link? I haven't got a clue about computing, so Unsure how to do that. There also more 'practicals' in Wales, but I haven't got round to doing them. These are mainly farms near the Dee in North Wales. I think Scottish and Welsh enclaves are important for this article, as they are separate countries within the United Kingdom. There are plenty more in English and Scottish local government, too. RAYMI.

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In the list of pene-exclaves and inaccessible districts, the following items, which were added quite some time ago, appear for Wales:

• Wales:
  • In Flintshire, on the Dee estuary, there are several bits of marshland that are separated from other bits of Wales.
  • There is also a small area of land south of Wyastone Leys which is inaccessible from any other area of Wales directly by road, being separated by land and the River Wye.
  • There are several small areas north of the village of Part-Y-Seal are inaccessible from Wales directly, these include one farm, two river banks and a small island in the River Wye.
  • National rail services connecting north and south Wales must pass through England.

This seems like a reasonable sample to address what had been proposed for the "practicals" in Wales.

Jeff in CA 00:48, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

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Nike

Should the headquarters of Nike recieve any mention? They are completely surrounded by the Beaverton, Oregon, but remain outside the city. --Max Talk (add) 04:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

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I guess that, after all this time, not receiving an answer constitutes the answer . Jeff in CA 18:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

San Ysidro, California

is not an exclave, but is connected to San Diego proper by a thin strip of territory in San Diego Bay. Deleting. Hmmm...I guess I should have pasted into the Practical section. Done.

San Ysidro and Imperial Beach are connected with the main body of the City of San Diego by a peninsula that has the Silver Strand (San Diego), the former Coronado Island/North Island, and the San Diego-Coronado Bridge over San Diego Bay. Coronado Island and North Island are no more because sand dredged from the bottom of the bay was used to enlarge tthem and to connected them with dry land via the peninsula to the south. The only question that remains is this one: Does the U.S. Navy's Naval Amphibious Base Coronado interrupt this connection? I doubt that it because there is a public highway across the base.47.215.183.159 (talk) 21:32, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Enclaves

There are several municipal enclaves in western and central Pennsylvania:

Westmoreland County:

Ligonier Borough, surrounded completely by Ligonier Township

Laurel Mountain Borough, surrounded completely by Ligonier Township,

Seward Borough, surrounded completely by St. Clair Township

Cambria County:

Dale Borough, surrounded completely by Johnstown City (It is also part of a completely non-contiguous school district).

Ebensburg Borough, the County Seat, is completely surrounded by Cambria Township

Indiana County:

Indiana Borough, the County Seat, is completely surrounded by White Township

Armagh Borough, is surrounded completely by East Wheatfield Township.

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head; I'm sure there are several dozen others.

I just checked and found only four counties, Union, Potter, Elk(?), Philadelphia County, where a municipality was not completely surrounded by another municipality. Most were boroughs surrounded by townships. Many, such as Indiana, Bedford, and Centre Counties have the majority of Boroughs completely surrounded by a single township.

There are also several townships that have non-contiguous territories, and one borough that I could find (White Oak Borough, Allegheny County).

I think it would be better if the entry just to say there are many municipal enclaves in Pennsylvania. Perhaps someone ambitious could add them to the individual municipality lists. They are certainly not limited to the southeastern part of the state.

--J. J. in PA 17:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

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Please see the list article that was created fairly recently, List of enclaves in Pennsylvania. There are at least 338!

Jeff in CA 02:05, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

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Argentine/ Chilean Antarctic Territories.

These two countries regard their (otherwise unrecognized) territories as PROVINCES of their respective nations, rather than outlying territories. Despite the fact that these are unrecognized by any other nation, these, I believe should be listed in the exclave section, with an accompanying note. I am aware of all other nations' Antarctic claims, these differ in an EXCLAVE sense, as they are not 'provinces', but overseas territories, in the respective opinions of other claimants. The aforementioned South American nations' governments regard their claimed Antarctic to be inherent parts of their states. I am also aware they overlap......... RAYMI 80.68.39.212 10:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

French overseas departments

Shocktm has stated that "Island do not count as exclaves unless they are in the territorial water of another country." It seems to me that this would only preclude them from being enclaves, but they could still be exclaves. My thinking on adding Guadeloupe, Martinique, and Réunion was that their territorial waters were not contiguous with the rest of France. The same is true for French Guiana. I wanted to get consensus before I made any additional changes. --Lasunncty 17:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Island by there very nature are exclaves and general are not listed. Many countries have islands that are outside of the 12 nm Territorial waters limit or even outside the 200 nm Exclusive Economic Zone limit. If you just count the entities outside the EEZ limit you would need to add Hawaii, Easter Island, Canaries, Azores, Bornholm, Galapagos, etc. - at least two dozen places by my quick counting. Figuring out all of them would be difficult (one would have to place a standard, which is always debatable) and could be considered WP:OR as I do not see a list out there that lists them. -- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 00:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Islands by their very nature, in general, are neither enclaves nor exclaves. An enclave is a territory entirely surrounded by another territory. An exclave is a territory legally or politically attached to a main territory with which it is not physically contiguous because of surrounding alien territory. Therefore, the exception for an island would be, as stated above, an island surrounded entirely by the territorial water of another country (example: Malawi islands). None of the cited examples (Hawaii, Easter Island, Canaries, Azores, Bornholm, Galapagos) is surrounded entirely by the territorial water of another country. On the contrary, they are surrounded entirely by their own territorial water. (Note that islands divided between two or more sovereign entities are pene-exclaves.) Jeff in CA 16:32, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Put another way, in answer to Lasunncty, for these cases to be exclaves, their territorial waters would need to be completely surrounded by the territorial waters of one or more other countries, rather than international waters. Jeff in CA 18:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Anchuras, Spain

You have other here:

[1]

Anchuras is part of the spanish province of Ciudad Real (At its northwest), situated between the provinces of Badajoz and Toledo.

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Note that this fact (also requested in Section 9 above) had been shown in the list at some time much prior to this date.

Jeff in CA 18:45, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

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Subnational enclaves which are not exclaves | Louisville, Kentucky

This section is now disproportionately long. Any objection to trimming it to simply read:

In Kentucky, when the governments of Louisville and Jefferson County merged in 2003, a bewildering array of enclaves was created, as all other incorporated cities in Jefferson County retained their status as separate cities (reference)

Spikebrennan 17:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection, as we have already been spared this type of lengthy detail that could have been provided for a few other states, such as Pennsylvania, seemingly for as long as this list has existed.

Jeff in CA 05:00, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

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I pared down the list of municipalities that are either enclaves or parts of composite enclaves. There were 71 such places listed before, and now there are 25 cities that remain listed on the main page among the enclave descriptions for the Louisville Metro and "balance" areas. As before, there are still 16 individual enclaves and 3 composite enclaves listed on the main page. The following information was removed for the third composite enclave, consisting of 51 municipalities.

These 51 municipalities form a large composite enclave within the Louisville/Jefferson County metro "balance":

Norbourne Estates, Richlawn, St. Matthews, Woodland Hills, Middletown, Anchorage, Bancroft, Barbourmeade, Beechwood Village, Bellemeade, Bellewood, Blue Ridge Manor, Briarwood, Broeck Pointe, Brownsboro Farm, Brownsboro Village, Crossgate, Douglass Hills, Druid Hills, Forest Hills, Glenview, Glenview Manor, Goose Creek, Graymoor-Devondale, Jeffersontown, Hurstbourne, Hurstbourne Acres, Indian Hills, Langdon Place, Lyndon, Manor Creek, Maryhill Estates, Meadow Vale, Meadowbrook Farm, Mockingbird Valley, Moorland, Murray Hill, Northfield, Norwood, Old Brownsboro Place, Plantation, Riverwood, Rolling Fields, Rolling Hills, Spring Valley, Sycamore, Ten Broeck, Westwood, Wildwood, Windy Hills, and Woodlawn Park.

Jeff in CA 05:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

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Prasat Preah Vihear

In "Inaccessible Districts" Cambodia's Prasat Preah Vihear should be included. It can only be approached through Thailand. The World Court disallowed Thailand's claim in 1957. Thailand was so sure it would win the case that it allowed ownership go to arbitration rather than remain as disputed territory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.136.71.55 (talk) 11:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

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Added as of this date. Jeff in CA 19:14, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Saint Pierre and Miquelon

The French islands of Saint Pierre and Miquelon were in Newfoundland waters until 1949 and since then in Canadian waters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.136.71.55 (talk) 12:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I presume that is because Newfoundland became a part of the dominion of Canada in 1949. The corridor of French water that extends southward of Saint Pierre and Miquelon is, of course, excepted from the above statement.

Jeff in CA 04:49, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Marble Hill, Manhattan

A section of the New York City, NY, USA Borough of Manhattan (and, thus New York County), that was separated from the island by the construction of a canal, and later joined with the Bronx Peninsula. Now even though it is physically attached to the Bronx and uses the Bronx' divisions of the NYPD and FDNY and has a Bronx area code and postal Zip code, it is still, technically, considered part of Manhattan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.237.135 (talk) 22:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Practical enclaves and waterways

It might be pointed out that the German city of Konstanz to the south of the Rhine has no "land" border with any part of Germany, being surrounded by Switzerland; it is linked to the rest of Germany by a bridge; the same applies mutatis mutandis to the Swiss town of Stein am Rhein which only has a bridge connecting it to the rest of Switzerland, being otherwise surrounded by Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.176.244 (talk) 14:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It might also be pointed out that the sections of the rivers that they border are internal waters of their own country. Therefore one need not travel through a different country's territory or waters to reach them.

Jeff in CA 04:41, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Strange that I should return to my comment above after five years and find that someone has commented on it just a few hours earlier. I take the point entirely; but entities like this are germane to the discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.35.131.149 (talk) 10:17, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Local enclaves and exclaves

The listing of enclaves and exclaves (and especially pene-enclaves and pene-exclaves) at a subnational level has gotten out of hand. There are too many of these for Wikipedia to have an exhaustive list. I think I could find half a dozen more just in Los Angeles County. The Kentucky Bend is notable. Nothing else within the USA rates inclusion in this article, save broad statements about Indian reservations and such.  Randall Bart   Talk  06:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Dubrovnik

Dubrovnik is listed as both an enclave and pene-enclave. It can be argued whether it is a proper pene-enclave or not, but it is obvious - even from the text of its "enclave" listing - that it is not an enclave. (It borders two foreign states and a sea.) So I'm removing it from the enclave list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.155.151.233 (talk) 19:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Kyrgyzstan

Need local expert to check Qal'acha and Khalmion. I don't know which is right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjamin Trovato (talk • contribs) 19:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The Khalmion link in this article is unreliable and probably wrong, as it describes it as an Uzbek enclave inside Kyrgyzstan north of Sokh. The latitude and longitude given in this article place Khalmion about 30 miles east of Sokh. Bradt Travel Guide to Kyrgyzstan gives Dzhangail as the Uzbek enclave at this latitude and longitude. In Google Earth, both Dzangail and Kalmion point to nearly the same place. This is either an error or two different names for the same place. In all independent sources on the Internet (in Russian), Khalmion is characterized as a Kyrgyz village, not an Uzbek enclave: see, e.g., here and here. (This information is thanks to Skinsmoke)

Qal'acha or Kalacha is correct. Action: changed "Khalmion" to "Dzhangail." Jeff in CA 17:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I researched this further. Qalacha is the correct reference to the Uzbek enclave that is north of Sokh. According to the GEOnet place names server, there are two villages in this small enclave: Chon-Kara at the south end (40°13′56″N 71°02′07″E) and Qalacha at the north end. So references to this enclave as Chon-Kara are also correct. But according to the GEOnet server, Kalacha and Chong-Kara are two other, different places altogether, located outside of this enclave. The location of the Uzbek town of Kalacha is within the enclave of Sokh. The location of the Kyrgyz town of Chong-Kara is 2 km northwest of the Uzbek Chon-Kara enclave. So it would appear that "Qalacha" is the correct name for the enclave, but "Kalacha" is not. Jeff in CA 14:35, 8 March 2013 (UTC)