Talk:List of domesticated animals/Archive 5

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We might want to take a look at the "purpose" column, and do a little trimming.

For example, the same animal doesn't need to have both "fur" and "pelt" listed. And dogs probably don't need both "transportation" and "draft". We did this once before, but a lot of... redundant things have crept in. I don't have the spoons to do it solo at this point, but if someone is hesitant to just take an axe to the whole thing (and possibly start edit wars or whatever), we can do more or less what we did last time... list the dubious or apparently duplicate entries here, discuss them, then nuke anything we agree is unnecessary after we discuss them.

Some things I remember from the last go-round:

we pretty much decided that "leather" or "hide" are pretty much equivalent, but somewhat different from "pelt" or "fur" (which are, themselves, pretty much equivalent), so you should only mention both if it's relatively common to both use skin with the hair scraped off (leather/hide) and skin with the hair still on (pelt/fur), and in any case you should only have one from each set. But parchment/vellum is a somewhat different beast, and gets included separately (if it's at least somewhat commonly made from that animal).

Meat=we kill it, cut it up, and either eat some of its flesh, or feed it to animals, and offering said flesh as a ritual sacrifice still counts at meat. Animal feed=we feed it whole, and often alive, to animals. Other body part items only get mentioned if they 1. aren't used as food (eg emu oil), or 2. aren't taken by killing the animal (eg cattle being bled, while still alive)

Manure or fertilizing generally only gets mentioned if, eg, the animal is used (as cows sometimes are) to stand around in a field, turning the grass into poop so more valuable plants can be planted there.

Anyone with more spoons than me willing to start the process?... Tamtrible (talk) 07:16, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, sounds like lots of fiddly work - not too keen to dive in :p I suspect that before that there might have to be another dedicated sweep to just remove entire entries, based on ongoing problems. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 18:27, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Most of the dubious entries are in the second list. I'll start the discussion with just the first list. A few entries at a time, probably.

Dogs:

Do we really need guarding, policing, narcotics detection, *and* patrol? Seems like at least one of these is a duplicate of one of the others. I'd probably nuke "patrol", that's kind of vague, and better covered by "guarding" (eg junkyard guard dogs) or policing (eg K9 units)

What about transportation, draft, and working? I think the only way they're used for transportation is as, well, draft animals. And "working" is pretty vague.

"Service" is pretty vague, and probably a duplicate of other things

Not too sure about education

Goats:

It seems like it's a bit redundant to mention clearing land, weed control, manure, and lawn mowing. Maybe group clearing land, weed control, and lawn mowing (or, at least the first two) as "plant removal"? And are they really used for manure (eg either commercial sale of goat poop as a fertilizer, or the "have them graze and poop, to clear and fertilize a field simultaneously" type thing)?

pigs:

Same question about manure

Are they actually used for weed control?

sheep:

We've got leather, pelt, and hides. I can see keeping two of those, maybe, but not all 3.

Are they actually used for racing, guarding, or fighting?

Ornamental?

Both lawn mowing and weed control are mentioned, though it's more reasonable to have just the two, I suppose.

Manure again.

cattle:

We've got both leather and hides, plus fibre.

It seems a little reduntant to have working, plowing, draft, transportation, and mount--and are they actually used as mounts? Other than bull riding, which is not so much using them as a *mount* as using them as entertainment...

Probably shouldn't have both soil fertilization and dung

Are they actually used for racing or guarding?

Again with the weed control and lawn mowing. Maybe group them both as "landscaping"?

I'll stop here for now. Tamtrible (talk) 05:47, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I think, in general, we should drop "transportation". It is reasonable to distinguish between mounts (animals we sit on and ride) and draft (animals we attach something to and have them pull it), and possibly also pack (animals we tie stuff to and make them carry it), but aside from that, what's the point of "transportation" as a purpose? At the very least, we should probably never have both "transportation" and one or more of the others. Tamtrible (talk) 05:57, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Zebu:

We've got leather and hides again

Also working, plowing, draft, transportation, and mount

Are they actually used for fighting, or racing?

Also, both soil fertilization and dung.

Cat: no problems

Chickens:

Racing? Guarding?

And we should probably limit the use of "manure" as a purpose, it's kind of just an ancillary byproduct...

Guinea pigs:

Racing?

Both lawn mowing and weed control?

And manure again.

Donkeys:

Again, transportation, working, plowing, draft, and mount. I think in most cases "working" is synonymous with "draft", possibly also "plowing" (that's just a specialized application of draft, and you could use pretty much any suitably strong draft animal to pull a plow, though I suppose something like an elephant might compact the soil too much). And the only other form of "transportation" that seems relevant is, well, pack.

Both guarding and patrol

Both lawn mowing and weed control

Manure again.

Duck:

Manure again.

Water buffalo:

Again, working, plowing, draft, mount, and patrol

Guppy: looks fine. Tamtrible (talk) 06:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Next batch:

Dromedary camel:

Transportation, hunting, and mount. Should probably be mount, draft, and pack (if they're used as draft animals, not sure they are--I know they're used as pack animals), I assume "hunting" refers to either using them as mounts when hunting, or, well, hunting them for meat, which would be covered under "meat", presumably.

What is their urine used for?

Are they actually used as pets?

Horse:

transportation, working, herding, hunting, plowing, draft, mount, and patrol should probably become mount, draft, and pack, since I think (correct me if I'm wrong) their only use for herding, hunting, and patrol is as a mount. And plowing, if we decide that's separate from draft.

Not entirely sure what is meant by guiding and/or servicing, except that those are likely the same thing being described in different ways.

Are they actually used for fighting, except as mounts or draft animals?

Again with the manure.

Probably shouldn't have both lawn mowing and weed control

silkmoth: fine

pigeon: manure again.

Goose: manure again.

Yak:

Again, I suspect transportation, working, plowing, mount, fighting, guarding, and patrol (possibly not guarding, not as sure of that) are referring to mount, draft, and pack, not some other use. For mount, draft, and pack, the important thing is what the *animal* is doing (carrying people, dragging stuff, or carrying stuff), not what the *people* are doing (patrolling, farming, hiking, whatever). Things like "patrol" should only be used if the animal is, itself, independently, patrolling (eg a police dog, or a junkyard dog), not just carrying people or stuff for humans who are patrolling.

Once again, dung. May actually be semi-valid in this particular case, afaik in some areas dried dung is used as a fuel, because there aren't trees and such for firewood.

Bactrian camel:

Once again, transportation, hunting, mount should probably be mount and pack (and possibly also draft? Not sure)

Are they kept as pets?

Again, dung may actually be valid here, because firewood.

Llama:

Again, transportation, working, draft, and pack should probably just be draft and pack.

Again, both weed control and lawn mowing

Again, manure.

Should we add "entertainment" or something for animals that are commonly used in petting zoos? Which would include these, sheep, and probably goats.

More later. Tamtrible (talk) 03:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Tamtrible:, something interesting in regard to camels, it seems that milk from camels is reducing problems from diabetes, google and see

positive effects on glycemic control, by reducing fasting blood sugar, decreasing insulin resistance, and improving lipid profiles among patients with diabetes. In most studies, the recommended dose of camel milk was 500 mL/day which led to improvement of diabetes markers even after 3 months in patients with diabetes Dan Koehl (talk) 04:46, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Interesting, but not especially germane to the present issue. Care to comment on any of the "do we include this purpose" entries? Tamtrible (talk) 21:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Next batch.

Alpaca:

The usual problems with lawn mowing, weed control, and manure

Guineafowl:

Do we need both "guarding" and "alarming"?

Again, manure.

Fuegian dog: looks fine

Ferret:

Racing? Is there actually ferret racing going on?...

Muscovy duck:

Manure again.

Barbary dove: looks fine.

Bali cattle:

The usual working/plowing/draft issue

Dung

Gayal:

Dung

Turkey:

Manure

Goldfish:

Are goldfish races really a thing?

Bunjays (rabbits, just feeling a little silly):

Racing?

Usual issues with lawn mowing, weed control, and manure

Koi: fine

Canary:

Fighting? Are canary fights a Thing?

Finches: fine

Mouses:

Racing?

Everything else from the first list (rats, mink, foxes, hedgehogs, and skunks): fine

Since no one has responded to any of these yet (except for the aside about camel milk), I'm not even going to try to start on the second list until we decide what things should be *removed* from it. Tamtrible (talk) 05:54, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Dormice as pets

@Dennis the mennis:: Are you sure that edible dormice were kept as pets? Don't they sleep for months? Its article says nothing about pets. --Error (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes I'm quite sure, some people do keep edible dormice as pets especially in modern times, I could find a source that relates to edible dormice being kept as pets. Dennis the mennis (talk) 11:21, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Anyway, you kind of misspelt the content Dormouses as pets rather than Dormice as pets Dennis the mennis (talk) 11:23, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion

In preparation for trimming the "semidomesticated" table, let's try to agree on what does, and does not, count as criteria for inclusion.

Here's my understanding of what we'd agreed to previously:

First table is for things that are pretty much unquestionably domesticated--generally, things that are recognized as a different species, or at least a different subspecies, from their wild ancestor.

Second table is for things that might be domesticated, and/or have an *extensive* relationship with humans (outside of zoos) other than simple predation.

Things that (to my mind) count as an extensive relationship:

Commercially important farming (eg not just one or two test projects or something)

Legal sale as pets (again, implied to involve at least several hundred individuals, not just a few eccentrics)

Research using them as a model organism (not just research on that specific species for its own sake, eg to help conservation efforts)

Captive breeding outside of zoos (again, we're talking on scale, not just a few eccentrics getting a wild pair to breed in their garage--generally, there should be at least 2 generations of captive bred animals, ie there should be at least some captive bred animals with captive bred parents.)

Things that do *not* count:

Single, isolated examples, with no indication of a wider trend (eg an article talking about one person having a pet whatever)

Black-market sales of exotic animals as pets (people will try to make *anything* into pets, even things they *really* shouldn't)

Zoos

Any disagreement?

Rather than engaging in edit wars or whatever, I suggest you nominate entries (or individual species, in multi-species entries) for deletion, and give the person who put them there a chance to argue their case (a week or 2 should suffice). I'd say claim backups don't necessarily need to be Wikipedia-worthy sources (eg if you're claiming it's sold as a pet, listing the website of a dealer who sells that animal would count), but you certainly need *something* besides your bare word. Tamtrible (talk) 16:57, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

List of changes is too conservative

I'm glad that this list indicates how a species is different from its wild ancestors because that's definitely useful information to have on hand, but it's so conservative in its estimates of behavior that it seems a bit misleading. Several animals on the list only mention physical changes, despite the fact that (for example) cows are definitely very different behaviorally than aurochs. Dogs are only suggested to "probably" have significant behavioral changes from their wild ancestors, when it's very well established that their behavior has changed a great deal. It also doesn't really seem to indicate what is meant by "tame" in this context, especially since eg. cats and horses are listed as tame while cows are not. I'd like to improve the usefulness and accuracy of this list but it's not really clear what was intended. 66.177.19.59 (talk) 07:44, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, it is kind of... fuzzy. And people of different levels of expertise with different criteria have put in entries for different animals. If you can think of a coherent way to standardize it a bit, feel free.

to me, "tame" would refer to, well, an animal that, with minimal training/special work, will willingly interact with humans, especially humans that aren't "their" human. Eg most dogs that haven't been abused or whatever will go towards a friendly-seeming person, even a total stranger. But that's just my opinion... Tamtrible (talk) 07:26, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Consensus sought on redomestication events...

There are several species on the second list (eg Gallus gallus, Lama guanicoe) that are also on the first list. In my opinion, anything on the first list should not be listed again on the second list, as it seems mostly redundant. A separate domestication event that led to a separate modern definitely-domesticated species (eg the two Bos primigenius species listed) would be fine, but I think we should not list, separately, modern attempts to re-domesticate a species we previously domesticated. The list is long enough as it is, and I don't think that kind of thing adds much value.

But, I do not wish to impose my will without seeking consensus.

Thoughts? Tamtrible (talk) 00:10, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Entries to delete

As previously discussed, to avoid edit wars, I think we should propose possible entries to delete, and only delete them if there is a general consensus after 2 weeks or so.

That said, here are the candidates I am proposing (I will likely add more later)

Syrian wild ass (no indication that it was ever domesticated to any extent)

African sacred ibis (evidence of domestication is minimal and disputed)

Whooper, trumpeter, and black-necked swans (though black swans are mentioned as being used as an "ornamental" bird, so maybe they should stay)

Tundra swans

Crested bobwhite

Silver-eared mesia (though the red-billed leiothrix is fine)

If none of these deletions is disputed by June 10th, feel free to nuke 'em... (and please similarly date-stamp any other entries you wish to dispute) Tamtrible (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Next set will be "ripe" on June 11...

Yellow-crested cockatoos--no mention of captive breeding, just wild-caught animals (often *illegally* wild-caught animals)

Chinese alligator (though the American one is fine)--sounds like the only breeding happening is, basically, reintroduction efforts, which I put in the same class as zoos. If they actually are being bred for meat, leather, or anything else like that, then they can stay.

North African ostrich (though the other ostriches are fine)

Major Mitchell's cockatoo (only zoos are mentioned)

Rocky Mountain, Roosevelt's, tule, and Manitoban elk; and Altai and Manchurian wapiti--though the Tian Shan wapati can stay

As before, if you have any evidence that these species a. are being farmed/ranched/etc (not counting purely wild-caught pets), or b. are captive bred other than for zoos, re-introduction projects, or the like, let us know by the 11th. Tamtrible (talk) 09:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Seeing no objections, I shall nuke these. Tamtrible (talk) 02:31, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Next set of problem children to potentially nuke, ready to kill on June 31: (edit: my calendar was on the wrong page. June 31 doesn't exist. Make that July 1... Tamtrible (talk) 12:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC) )

Stoat: no indication that it was ever bred, just trapped

Lilian's lovebird and Grey-headed lovebird--the others are fine, but those are basically stated as "Yeah, these guys don't really breed in captivity"

Indian python, Angolan python--the others are fine, but there is no mention of those 2 being captive bred on their pages

African rock python--only mention as pets is wild-caught animals, often illegally caught

Zebra finch and double-barred finch--no mention of pets or captive breeding on page(s)

Anderson's salamander, long-toed salamander, spotted salamander, marbled salamander, and mole salamander (though the rest are fine)--no mention of pets or captive breeding on page(s)

Any objections?

This batch has been nuked. Tamtrible (talk) 05:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Next set, "ripe" on Aug. 10

Iranian fat-tailed (Eublepharis angramainyu), West Indian leopard (E. fuscus), East Indian leopard (E. hardwickii), Satpura (E. satpuraensis) and Turkmenistan eyelid geckos (E. turcmenicus) --no indication of pethood on any of their pages.

Elegant parrot--little indication of captivity, and none of breeding, on their page.

Dyeing and yellow-striped poison dart frogs--no indication of captive breeding on their pages. The other dart frogs are fine.

Diamond dove (no indication of captive status), and zebra dove (no indication of any kind of captive breeding)

Objections? Tamtrible (talk) 18:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Nuked. Tamtrible (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this; presumed innocent of pethood until proven guilty is definitely the level we should be shooting for here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

but with plenty of time for people to defend their "darlings", as appropriate. And, at least for the second list, I'm kind of erring on the side of generosity, in the sense that... it doesn't have to be a "wikipedia-worthy" source, I'd accept "Yeah, here's a care sheet for X that mentions breeding" or whatever, just... not the simple, bare fact that someone, at some point, thought it should be on the page. Tamtrible (talk) 02:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

A few more, "ripe" on Aug. 11

Kingsnake subspecies: desert, black, speckled, Apalachicola. The rest are fine (mentioned as pets on the main kingsnake page, if not on their own pages)

next set of kingsnakes: nuke everything but grey-banded. No mention of pethood except on Ruthven's, which mentions wild capture (often illegal), but not breeding.

next set: keep the subspecies (Thayer's), dump the main (Mexican). No mention of pethood or breeding for the species as a whole, just for the subspecies

Prairie kingsnake: nuke species and subspecies. No mention of pethood.

Also, the remnants should probably be clumped, they're all king snakes of the same genera. Not sure of the best picture(s) to keep. Any snake experts?

Milk snakes: nuke Guatemalan, Red, and Scarlet. Rest are fine.

and, last (consecutive) set of snakes: remove Eastern rat snake, Baird's rat snake, Great Planes rat snake, eastern fox snake, Slowinski's cornsnake, gray rat snake, and fox snake. The rest are fine. Tamtrible (talk) 03:17, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Nuked, though I'd really appreciate if a snake expert could take a look at the remnants, maybe cluster them appropriately, and make sure the pictures are still a match. Tamtrible (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Next set, "ripe" on Oct. 1

Muskox: no evidence on their page, except of introductions/reintroductions to wild areas.

Siberian chipmunk: extremely limited mention of pethood and use as fur animals, no hint of captive breeding listed outside of zoos.

Eastern and Western bearded dragons: no specific mention of pethood, either on their own pages or on the genus page. *Maybe* keep Eastern (or, more likely, add it to the other bearded dragon entry), there is at least mention of their diet in captivity. But it might be better to list it as "and related species", or mention the only other species specifically mentioned as a pet, Pogona henrylawsoni

Silver carp: dubious, I'd like a second opinion. Here is the only mention of captivity on their page: "Silver carp were imported to North America in the 1970s to control algal growth in aquaculture and municipal wastewater treatment facilities"

Blue-eyed cockatoo: second opinion also wanted, they are mentioned as "great pets", but no mention of captive breeding, just (illegal) wild capture. Much likewise for Red-vented cockatoo, they are mentioned as being captured as pets and captive bred for reintroduction programs, but not captive bred as pets; also Long-billed corella, Little corella, and Western corella (pethood mentioned, but no captive breeding info). No mention of pethood at all for Solomons cockatoo. The rest in that entry (2, I think) are fine.

Objections? (and, second opinions, please) I may want to leave this one a little longer than 2 weeks, since there are several borderline ones. Tamtrible (talk) 01:06, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Entries to delete

As previously discussed, to avoid edit wars, I think we should propose possible entries to delete, and only delete them if there is a general consensus after 2 weeks or so.

That said, here are the candidates I am proposing (I will likely add more later)

Syrian wild ass (no indication that it was ever domesticated to any extent)

African sacred ibis (evidence of domestication is minimal and disputed)

Whooper, trumpeter, and black-necked swans (though black swans are mentioned as being used as an "ornamental" bird, so maybe they should stay)

Tundra swans

Crested bobwhite

Silver-eared mesia (though the red-billed leiothrix is fine)

If none of these deletions is disputed by June 10th, feel free to nuke 'em... (and please similarly date-stamp any other entries you wish to dispute) Tamtrible (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Next set will be "ripe" on June 11...

Yellow-crested cockatoos--no mention of captive breeding, just wild-caught animals (often *illegally* wild-caught animals)

Chinese alligator (though the American one is fine)--sounds like the only breeding happening is, basically, reintroduction efforts, which I put in the same class as zoos. If they actually are being bred for meat, leather, or anything else like that, then they can stay.

North African ostrich (though the other ostriches are fine)

Major Mitchell's cockatoo (only zoos are mentioned)

Rocky Mountain, Roosevelt's, tule, and Manitoban elk; and Altai and Manchurian wapiti--though the Tian Shan wapati can stay

As before, if you have any evidence that these species a. are being farmed/ranched/etc (not counting purely wild-caught pets), or b. are captive bred other than for zoos, re-introduction projects, or the like, let us know by the 11th. Tamtrible (talk) 09:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Seeing no objections, I shall nuke these. Tamtrible (talk) 02:31, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Next set of problem children to potentially nuke, ready to kill on June 31: (edit: my calendar was on the wrong page. June 31 doesn't exist. Make that July 1... Tamtrible (talk) 12:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC) )

Stoat: no indication that it was ever bred, just trapped

Lilian's lovebird and Grey-headed lovebird--the others are fine, but those are basically stated as "Yeah, these guys don't really breed in captivity"

Indian python, Angolan python--the others are fine, but there is no mention of those 2 being captive bred on their pages

African rock python--only mention as pets is wild-caught animals, often illegally caught

Zebra finch and double-barred finch--no mention of pets or captive breeding on page(s)

Anderson's salamander, long-toed salamander, spotted salamander, marbled salamander, and mole salamander (though the rest are fine)--no mention of pets or captive breeding on page(s)

Any objections?

This batch has been nuked. Tamtrible (talk) 05:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Next set, "ripe" on Aug. 10

Iranian fat-tailed (Eublepharis angramainyu), West Indian leopard (E. fuscus), East Indian leopard (E. hardwickii), Satpura (E. satpuraensis) and Turkmenistan eyelid geckos (E. turcmenicus) --no indication of pethood on any of their pages.

Elegant parrot--little indication of captivity, and none of breeding, on their page.

Dyeing and yellow-striped poison dart frogs--no indication of captive breeding on their pages. The other dart frogs are fine.

Diamond dove (no indication of captive status), and zebra dove (no indication of any kind of captive breeding)

Objections? Tamtrible (talk) 18:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Nuked. Tamtrible (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this; presumed innocent of pethood until proven guilty is definitely the level we should be shooting for here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

but with plenty of time for people to defend their "darlings", as appropriate. And, at least for the second list, I'm kind of erring on the side of generosity, in the sense that... it doesn't have to be a "wikipedia-worthy" source, I'd accept "Yeah, here's a care sheet for X that mentions breeding" or whatever, just... not the simple, bare fact that someone, at some point, thought it should be on the page. Tamtrible (talk) 02:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

A few more, "ripe" on Aug. 11

Kingsnake subspecies: desert, black, speckled, Apalachicola. The rest are fine (mentioned as pets on the main kingsnake page, if not on their own pages)

next set of kingsnakes: nuke everything but grey-banded. No mention of pethood except on Ruthven's, which mentions wild capture (often illegal), but not breeding.

next set: keep the subspecies (Thayer's), dump the main (Mexican). No mention of pethood or breeding for the species as a whole, just for the subspecies

Prairie kingsnake: nuke species and subspecies. No mention of pethood.

Also, the remnants should probably be clumped, they're all king snakes of the same genera. Not sure of the best picture(s) to keep. Any snake experts?

Milk snakes: nuke Guatemalan, Red, and Scarlet. Rest are fine.

and, last (consecutive) set of snakes: remove Eastern rat snake, Baird's rat snake, Great Planes rat snake, eastern fox snake, Slowinski's cornsnake, gray rat snake, and fox snake. The rest are fine. Tamtrible (talk) 03:17, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Nuked, though I'd really appreciate if a snake expert could take a look at the remnants, maybe cluster them appropriately, and make sure the pictures are still a match. Tamtrible (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Next set, "ripe" on Oct. 1

Muskox: no evidence on their page, except of introductions/reintroductions to wild areas.

Siberian chipmunk: extremely limited mention of pethood and use as fur animals, no hint of captive breeding listed outside of zoos.

Eastern and Western bearded dragons: no specific mention of pethood, either on their own pages or on the genus page. *Maybe* keep Eastern (or, more likely, add it to the other bearded dragon entry), there is at least mention of their diet in captivity. But it might be better to list it as "and related species", or mention the only other species specifically mentioned as a pet, Pogona henrylawsoni

Silver carp: dubious, I'd like a second opinion. Here is the only mention of captivity on their page: "Silver carp were imported to North America in the 1970s to control algal growth in aquaculture and municipal wastewater treatment facilities"

Blue-eyed cockatoo: second opinion also wanted, they are mentioned as "great pets", but no mention of captive breeding, just (illegal) wild capture. Much likewise for Red-vented cockatoo, they are mentioned as being captured as pets and captive bred for reintroduction programs, but not captive bred as pets; also Long-billed corella, Little corella, and Western corella (pethood mentioned, but no captive breeding info). No mention of pethood at all for Solomons cockatoo. The rest in that entry (2, I think) are fine.

Objections? (and, second opinions, please) I may want to leave this one a little longer than 2 weeks, since there are several borderline ones. Tamtrible (talk) 01:06, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Don't have the spoons to do the prior set of nuking just yet, but I'm going back over the sections I've already done, because at least one has been added, and I may have missed some. Ripe on Jan. 30

all of the cassowaries: I'm not seeing any evidence of domestication, just hunting (and egg stealing), other than a brief mention on the page for the southern cassowary of live birds being traded.

pardine and rusty spotted genets (though the others are fine). No evidence of captivity or use by humans on their pages

bettas: akar, giant, (both no mention of captivity at all), Krabi (mentioned explicitly as wild-caught, not captive bred), the rest are (arguably) fine. Though the only ones actually mentioned as being captive bred (rather than just as being "in the aquarium trade" and not explicitly not captive bred) are the first one, and the spotted. Might be best to do an "and related species" on this one, maybe mentioning just those 2 species.

Indian palm squirrel: pretty questionable, some mention of people feeding them, but not really any mention of captivity, even as pets.

Mollies: Amazon (no mention of captivity at all), though the rest appear fine.

Western Honey Bee Confusion

Some of the categories for the western honey bee (specifically the "Degree and type of domestication" and "Extent in the wild vs captivity") seem to have been placed in the wrong order. I would fix this myself but I'm not sure how, so I'm just pointing it out here. Sorry! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.14.32 (talk) 02:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Moving of second table to a new article

Domestication is a very specific phenomenon, and the inclusion of the second table on this page would seem to imply that the animals on both lists are comparable in terms of acclimation to humans. Additionally, "tame" is a word that applies to individuals, not entire species. While a specific member of a species may be tamed, that does not necessarily say anything about the species as a whole. The exact definition of domestication is somewhat controversial, but many would argue that domestication is a threshold, not a sliding scale, and thus a species cannot be "partially domesticated." As such, I would suggest moving the second table on this page to its own article, and renaming it to the more objective "animals successfully bred in captivity." 97.82.194.205 (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

But other people would argue that it *is* a sliding scale. Exactly how much modification is necessary before something becomes domesticated? Is an animal that no longer exists in the wild, but only in captivity (as was thought to be the case, for a while, with crested geckos) automatically "domesticated"? Also, before we split this page into 2 tables, there were *so* many edit wars. The second table reduced them dramatically, but having it on another page would not have the same salutary effect. Basically, the idea is to stop back-and-forths like "Oh, wait, why aren't elephants on here? We've had captive elephants for centuries!" vs "Wait, why are elephants on here? They aren't really domesticated."

And I think that the fact that it *is* a separate table, with a header indicating the... dubiousness of the domestication status, including an explicit explanation that... well, I'll just quote it.

    Due to the somewhat unclear outlines of what precisely constitutes domestication, there are some species that may or may not be fully domesticated. There are also some species that are extensively used or kept as pets by humans, but are not significantly altered from wild-type animals. Most animals on this second table are at least somewhat altered from wild-type animals due to their extensive interactions with humans, albeit not to the point that they are regarded as distinct forms (therefore, no separate wild ancestors are noted). Many of them could not be released into the wild, or are in some way dependent on humans. 

So I would say that it's pretty clear that the second list is not being presented as "comparable in terms of acclimation to humans". It's being presented as "These might be domesticated, or on their way to becoming domesticated, or are in some other way Special in their relationship with humans such that it at least looks a little like domestication".

Please don't bring back the edit wars. If you want to help me eliminate some of the more dubious entries, go ahead. If you have a suggestion for a better title for the second table, we can discuss it. But moving it to its own page would likely be a Problem. Tamtrible (talk) 22:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Entries to delete

As previously discussed, to avoid edit wars, I think we should propose possible entries to delete, and only delete them if there is a general consensus after 2 weeks or so.

That said, here are the candidates I am proposing (I will likely add more later)

Syrian wild ass (no indication that it was ever domesticated to any extent)

African sacred ibis (evidence of domestication is minimal and disputed)

Whooper, trumpeter, and black-necked swans (though black swans are mentioned as being used as an "ornamental" bird, so maybe they should stay)

Tundra swans

Crested bobwhite

Silver-eared mesia (though the red-billed leiothrix is fine)

If none of these deletions is disputed by June 10th, feel free to nuke 'em... (and please similarly date-stamp any other entries you wish to dispute) Tamtrible (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Next set will be "ripe" on June 11...

Yellow-crested cockatoos--no mention of captive breeding, just wild-caught animals (often *illegally* wild-caught animals)

Chinese alligator (though the American one is fine)--sounds like the only breeding happening is, basically, reintroduction efforts, which I put in the same class as zoos. If they actually are being bred for meat, leather, or anything else like that, then they can stay.

North African ostrich (though the other ostriches are fine)

Major Mitchell's cockatoo (only zoos are mentioned)

Rocky Mountain, Roosevelt's, tule, and Manitoban elk; and Altai and Manchurian wapiti--though the Tian Shan wapati can stay

As before, if you have any evidence that these species a. are being farmed/ranched/etc (not counting purely wild-caught pets), or b. are captive bred other than for zoos, re-introduction projects, or the like, let us know by the 11th. Tamtrible (talk) 09:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Seeing no objections, I shall nuke these. Tamtrible (talk) 02:31, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Next set of problem children to potentially nuke, ready to kill on June 31: (edit: my calendar was on the wrong page. June 31 doesn't exist. Make that July 1... Tamtrible (talk) 12:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC) )

Stoat: no indication that it was ever bred, just trapped

Lilian's lovebird and Grey-headed lovebird--the others are fine, but those are basically stated as "Yeah, these guys don't really breed in captivity"

Indian python, Angolan python--the others are fine, but there is no mention of those 2 being captive bred on their pages

African rock python--only mention as pets is wild-caught animals, often illegally caught

Zebra finch and double-barred finch--no mention of pets or captive breeding on page(s)

Anderson's salamander, long-toed salamander, spotted salamander, marbled salamander, and mole salamander (though the rest are fine)--no mention of pets or captive breeding on page(s)

Any objections?

This batch has been nuked. Tamtrible (talk) 05:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Next set, "ripe" on Aug. 10

Iranian fat-tailed (Eublepharis angramainyu), West Indian leopard (E. fuscus), East Indian leopard (E. hardwickii), Satpura (E. satpuraensis) and Turkmenistan eyelid geckos (E. turcmenicus) --no indication of pethood on any of their pages.

Elegant parrot--little indication of captivity, and none of breeding, on their page.

Dyeing and yellow-striped poison dart frogs--no indication of captive breeding on their pages. The other dart frogs are fine.

Diamond dove (no indication of captive status), and zebra dove (no indication of any kind of captive breeding)

Objections? Tamtrible (talk) 18:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Nuked. Tamtrible (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this; presumed innocent of pethood until proven guilty is definitely the level we should be shooting for here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

but with plenty of time for people to defend their "darlings", as appropriate. And, at least for the second list, I'm kind of erring on the side of generosity, in the sense that... it doesn't have to be a "wikipedia-worthy" source, I'd accept "Yeah, here's a care sheet for X that mentions breeding" or whatever, just... not the simple, bare fact that someone, at some point, thought it should be on the page. Tamtrible (talk) 02:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

A few more, "ripe" on Aug. 11

Kingsnake subspecies: desert, black, speckled, Apalachicola. The rest are fine (mentioned as pets on the main kingsnake page, if not on their own pages)

next set of kingsnakes: nuke everything but grey-banded. No mention of pethood except on Ruthven's, which mentions wild capture (often illegal), but not breeding.

next set: keep the subspecies (Thayer's), dump the main (Mexican). No mention of pethood or breeding for the species as a whole, just for the subspecies

Prairie kingsnake: nuke species and subspecies. No mention of pethood.

Also, the remnants should probably be clumped, they're all king snakes of the same genera. Not sure of the best picture(s) to keep. Any snake experts?

Milk snakes: nuke Guatemalan, Red, and Scarlet. Rest are fine.

and, last (consecutive) set of snakes: remove Eastern rat snake, Baird's rat snake, Great Planes rat snake, eastern fox snake, Slowinski's cornsnake, gray rat snake, and fox snake. The rest are fine. Tamtrible (talk) 03:17, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Nuked, though I'd really appreciate if a snake expert could take a look at the remnants, maybe cluster them appropriately, and make sure the pictures are still a match. Tamtrible (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Snake expert wanted

Next set, "ripe" on Oct. 1

Muskox: no evidence on their page, except of introductions/reintroductions to wild areas.

Siberian chipmunk: extremely limited mention of pethood and use as fur animals, no hint of captive breeding listed outside of zoos.

Eastern and Western bearded dragons: no specific mention of pethood, either on their own pages or on the genus page. *Maybe* keep Eastern (or, more likely, add it to the other bearded dragon entry), there is at least mention of their diet in captivity. But it might be better to list it as "and related species", or mention the only other species specifically mentioned as a pet, Pogona henrylawsoni

Silver carp: dubious, I'd like a second opinion. Here is the only mention of captivity on their page: "Silver carp were imported to North America in the 1970s to control algal growth in aquaculture and municipal wastewater treatment facilities"

Fish expert wanted

Blue-eyed cockatoo: second opinion also wanted, they are mentioned as "great pets", but no mention of captive breeding, just (illegal) wild capture. Much likewise for Red-vented cockatoo, they are mentioned as being captured as pets and captive bred for reintroduction programs, but not captive bred as pets; also Long-billed corella, Little corella, and Western corella (pethood mentioned, but no captive breeding info). No mention of pethood at all for Solomons cockatoo. The rest in that entry (2, I think) are fine.

Bird expert wanted

Objections? (and, second opinions, please) I may want to leave this one a little longer than 2 weeks, since there are several borderline ones. Tamtrible (talk) 01:06, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

nuked, except for the carp and most of the cockatoos, I'd still like some kind of second opinion from a relevant expert. Tamtrible (talk) 05:13, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Don't have the spoons to do the prior set of nuking just yet, but I'm going back over the sections I've already done, because at least one has been added, and I may have missed some. Ripe on Jan. 30

all of the cassowaries: I'm not seeing any evidence of domestication, just hunting (and egg stealing), other than a brief mention on the page for the southern cassowary of live birds being traded.

pardine and rusty spotted genets (though the others are fine). No evidence of captivity or use by humans on their pages

bettas: akar, giant, (both no mention of captivity at all), Krabi (mentioned explicitly as wild-caught, not captive bred), the rest are (arguably) fine. Though the only ones actually mentioned as being captive bred (rather than just as being "in the aquarium trade" and not explicitly not captive bred) are the first one, and the spotted. Might be best to do an "and related species" on this one, maybe mentioning just those 2 species.

Indian palm squirrel: pretty questionable, some mention of people feeding them, but not really any mention of captivity, even as pets.

Mollies: Amazon (no mention of captivity at all), though the rest appear fine.

(I don't know if there's a formal way to request the attention of a subject expert... so I just wrote it big) Tamtrible (talk) 02:01, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Nuked. Still want a snake expert to look at the king snakes and rat snakes, a fish expert to look at the carp and the bettas, and a bird expert to look at the cockatoos. Tamtrible (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Entries to delete

As previously discussed, to avoid edit wars, I think we should propose possible entries to delete, and only delete them if there is a general consensus after 2 weeks or so.

That said, here are the candidates I am proposing (I will likely add more later)

Syrian wild ass (no indication that it was ever domesticated to any extent)

African sacred ibis (evidence of domestication is minimal and disputed)

Whooper, trumpeter, and black-necked swans (though black swans are mentioned as being used as an "ornamental" bird, so maybe they should stay)

Tundra swans

Crested bobwhite

Silver-eared mesia (though the red-billed leiothrix is fine)

If none of these deletions is disputed by June 10th, feel free to nuke 'em... (and please similarly date-stamp any other entries you wish to dispute) Tamtrible (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Next set will be "ripe" on June 11...

Yellow-crested cockatoos--no mention of captive breeding, just wild-caught animals (often *illegally* wild-caught animals)

Chinese alligator (though the American one is fine)--sounds like the only breeding happening is, basically, reintroduction efforts, which I put in the same class as zoos. If they actually are being bred for meat, leather, or anything else like that, then they can stay.

North African ostrich (though the other ostriches are fine)

Major Mitchell's cockatoo (only zoos are mentioned)

Rocky Mountain, Roosevelt's, tule, and Manitoban elk; and Altai and Manchurian wapiti--though the Tian Shan wapati can stay

As before, if you have any evidence that these species a. are being farmed/ranched/etc (not counting purely wild-caught pets), or b. are captive bred other than for zoos, re-introduction projects, or the like, let us know by the 11th. Tamtrible (talk) 09:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Seeing no objections, I shall nuke these. Tamtrible (talk) 02:31, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Next set of problem children to potentially nuke, ready to kill on June 31: (edit: my calendar was on the wrong page. June 31 doesn't exist. Make that July 1... Tamtrible (talk) 12:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC) )

Stoat: no indication that it was ever bred, just trapped

Lilian's lovebird and Grey-headed lovebird--the others are fine, but those are basically stated as "Yeah, these guys don't really breed in captivity"

Indian python, Angolan python--the others are fine, but there is no mention of those 2 being captive bred on their pages

African rock python--only mention as pets is wild-caught animals, often illegally caught

Zebra finch and double-barred finch--no mention of pets or captive breeding on page(s)

Anderson's salamander, long-toed salamander, spotted salamander, marbled salamander, and mole salamander (though the rest are fine)--no mention of pets or captive breeding on page(s)

Any objections?

This batch has been nuked. Tamtrible (talk) 05:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Next set, "ripe" on Aug. 10

Iranian fat-tailed (Eublepharis angramainyu), West Indian leopard (E. fuscus), East Indian leopard (E. hardwickii), Satpura (E. satpuraensis) and Turkmenistan eyelid geckos (E. turcmenicus) --no indication of pethood on any of their pages.

Elegant parrot--little indication of captivity, and none of breeding, on their page.

Dyeing and yellow-striped poison dart frogs--no indication of captive breeding on their pages. The other dart frogs are fine.

Diamond dove (no indication of captive status), and zebra dove (no indication of any kind of captive breeding)

Objections? Tamtrible (talk) 18:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Nuked. Tamtrible (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this; presumed innocent of pethood until proven guilty is definitely the level we should be shooting for here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

but with plenty of time for people to defend their "darlings", as appropriate. And, at least for the second list, I'm kind of erring on the side of generosity, in the sense that... it doesn't have to be a "wikipedia-worthy" source, I'd accept "Yeah, here's a care sheet for X that mentions breeding" or whatever, just... not the simple, bare fact that someone, at some point, thought it should be on the page. Tamtrible (talk) 02:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

A few more, "ripe" on Aug. 11

Kingsnake subspecies: desert, black, speckled, Apalachicola. The rest are fine (mentioned as pets on the main kingsnake page, if not on their own pages)

next set of kingsnakes: nuke everything but grey-banded. No mention of pethood except on Ruthven's, which mentions wild capture (often illegal), but not breeding.

next set: keep the subspecies (Thayer's), dump the main (Mexican). No mention of pethood or breeding for the species as a whole, just for the subspecies

Prairie kingsnake: nuke species and subspecies. No mention of pethood.

Also, the remnants should probably be clumped, they're all king snakes of the same genera. Not sure of the best picture(s) to keep. Any snake experts?

Milk snakes: nuke Guatemalan, Red, and Scarlet. Rest are fine.

and, last (consecutive) set of snakes: remove Eastern rat snake, Baird's rat snake, Great Planes rat snake, eastern fox snake, Slowinski's cornsnake, gray rat snake, and fox snake. The rest are fine. Tamtrible (talk) 03:17, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Nuked, though I'd really appreciate if a snake expert could take a look at the remnants, maybe cluster them appropriately, and make sure the pictures are still a match. Tamtrible (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Snake expert wanted

Next set, "ripe" on Oct. 1

Muskox: no evidence on their page, except of introductions/reintroductions to wild areas.

Siberian chipmunk: extremely limited mention of pethood and use as fur animals, no hint of captive breeding listed outside of zoos.

Eastern and Western bearded dragons: no specific mention of pethood, either on their own pages or on the genus page. *Maybe* keep Eastern (or, more likely, add it to the other bearded dragon entry), there is at least mention of their diet in captivity. But it might be better to list it as "and related species", or mention the only other species specifically mentioned as a pet, Pogona henrylawsoni

Silver carp: dubious, I'd like a second opinion. Here is the only mention of captivity on their page: "Silver carp were imported to North America in the 1970s to control algal growth in aquaculture and municipal wastewater treatment facilities"

Fish expert wanted

Blue-eyed cockatoo: second opinion also wanted, they are mentioned as "great pets", but no mention of captive breeding, just (illegal) wild capture. Much likewise for Red-vented cockatoo, they are mentioned as being captured as pets and captive bred for reintroduction programs, but not captive bred as pets; also Long-billed corella, Little corella, and Western corella (pethood mentioned, but no captive breeding info). No mention of pethood at all for Solomons cockatoo. The rest in that entry (2, I think) are fine.

Bird expert wanted

Objections? (and, second opinions, please) I may want to leave this one a little longer than 2 weeks, since there are several borderline ones. Tamtrible (talk) 01:06, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

nuked, except for the carp and most of the cockatoos, I'd still like some kind of second opinion from a relevant expert. Tamtrible (talk) 05:13, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Don't have the spoons to do the prior set of nuking just yet, but I'm going back over the sections I've already done, because at least one has been added, and I may have missed some. Ripe on Jan. 30

all of the cassowaries: I'm not seeing any evidence of domestication, just hunting (and egg stealing), other than a brief mention on the page for the southern cassowary of live birds being traded.

pardine and rusty spotted genets (though the others are fine). No evidence of captivity or use by humans on their pages

bettas: akar, giant, (both no mention of captivity at all), Krabi (mentioned explicitly as wild-caught, not captive bred), the rest are (arguably) fine. Though the only ones actually mentioned as being captive bred (rather than just as being "in the aquarium trade" and not explicitly not captive bred) are the first one, and the spotted. Might be best to do an "and related species" on this one, maybe mentioning just those 2 species.

Indian palm squirrel: pretty questionable, some mention of people feeding them, but not really any mention of captivity, even as pets.

Mollies: Amazon (no mention of captivity at all), though the rest appear fine.

(I don't know if there's a formal way to request the attention of a subject expert... so I just wrote it big) Tamtrible (talk) 02:01, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Nuked. Still want a snake expert to look at the king snakes and rat snakes, a fish expert to look at the carp and the bettas, and a bird expert to look at the cockatoos. Tamtrible (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Humans?

Are humans a domesticated species?  Card Zero  (talk) 12:47, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Gayal

All sources that I can find consider the Gayal to be sem-domesticated, but it is in the domesticated table. One example [1] Jameel the Saluki (talk) 10:11, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Arabian ostrich

The is no evidence that the Arabian ostrich was ever bred in captivity. This needs to be removed from the table. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 11:15, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Arabian oryx

It is unclear what Arabian oryx is doing in the table. There are no citations. Recommend removal Jameel the Saluki (talk) 11:20, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Dorcas gazelle

The reference for the Dorcas gazelle is extremely poor. It does not specify which species of gazelle. I have found evidence of entombed mummified remains of Dorcas gazelle, but it is a stretch to then claim that it was bred domestically in large numbers. Recommend removal. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 11:29, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Nubian ibex

There is evidence that the Ancient Egyptians at least attempted to domesticate the Nubian ibex, but the extent to which this happened is completely unknown. The reference supplied is unhelpful. The criteria for inclusion for these tables is current animals. Recommend removal. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 11:46, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

improved dates

Forgot to note this after I made the edit, but yesterday I improved the date sorting by adding actual sorting values for entries without them and grouping together "date unknown" entries at the bottom of the tables. Doing that SUCKED because of how many entries there were; please make sure new entries have proper sorting values, or I will steal your fortnite account. Thanks 2601:402:C202:BA70:93DB:9C4E:19C3:A96D (talk) 23:47, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Serval and caracal

I am adding date of origin to these two animals.

With regards Serval, I have come across one reference which describes the Ancient Egyptians as having "tamed" the species. All other references have stated that there is not enough information to say what they Egyptians were doing. Without having gone into the sources in detail (difficult to get) it appears the evidence is drawings with Servals on a lead, and Servals found entombed, which aren't sufficient evidence for domestication. The Ibis is a good example of this where despite vast numbers of mummies found genetic evidence indicated that they were all wild caught. Further any taming that may or may not have occurred does not seem to have lasted very long. Hence my dating of 1970 is the US as the modern domestication.

Similar claims are made about the caracal and the Egyptians, but as with the serval the evidence is weak. However there is a line of the use of captive bred caracals being used up til the 20th century in Iran and India. Sources are very weak, but from what I can put together, with a little bit of guesswork, the origin of this appears to have been in the Sasanian Empire, or at least pre-Islamic times. The origin in India is definitely more recent [2]. It is also unclear to what degree there was a captive breeding population vs recurrent capture of wild stock. Also unclear is to what degree any ancient stock has contributed to the modern captive stock. I am putting date as uncertain but possibly around 300, but with no citations because it needs an explanation. Perhaps a note. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 04:03, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Empty column in Tame and partially domesticated animals

User:Tamtrible reinserted the empty column into the table of tame and partially domesticated animals. The reason given was "things can occasionally be moved from one column to the other". Could the user please expand on this, I don't understand what he is trying to get at. Why is this the only table I've ever come across in Wikipedia with an empty column? Why not put an empty column in every table? Why not two? Why nat three?Jameel the Saluki (talk) 00:03, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I stated it wrong, sorry.

Things can be moved from one *table* to the other. The empty column is there so that if someone adds something to the first table that properly belongs in the second table, or if we collectively decide that something in the second table actually properly belongs in the first table, the move can be made without undue difficulty.

It's probably not *100%* necessary to keep it, since at this point most things aren't jumping from table to table like they have been in the past, but there have been *so* many edit wars on this page...

Feel free to edit (or even delete) the name of the column so it'll be skinnier, as we don't actually use it on the second table, but in the event of future wrangling about which table something belongs in, it genuinely does make it easier to keep the empty column in, so we can move entries without messing up the columns. Tamtrible (talk) 07:21, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I'll keep it, but that is so NOT a valid reason. The amount of time and effort that should be put into determining and demonstrating that a particular species belongs to a particular table should be many, many orders of magnitude greater than the time it takes to add or remove that column. Keeping the column, IMO encourages active warring. Species should not be moving back and forth from one table to the other. To that end, at a cursory glance at the page, there is a desperate lack of references or citations on much of the information given, particularly with respect to the level of domestication, which, I would imagine would be a substantial cause of such warring.

To that end I do have some comments on the criteria described in the introduction "This includes species which are semi-domesticated, undomesticated but captive-bred on a commercial scale, or commonly wild-caught, at least occasionally captive-bred, and tameable. In order to be considered fully domesticated, most species have undergone significant genetic, behavioural and morphological changes from their wild ancestors, while others have changed very little from their wild ancestors despite hundreds or thousands of years of potential selective breeding. A number of factors determine how quickly any changes may occur in a species, but there is not always a desire to improve a species from its wild form. Domestication is a gradual process, so there is no precise moment in the history of a given species when it can be considered to have become fully domesticated."

• with regards full domestication. Whilst this is a reasonable description of full domestication, I hope that final decision on the inclusion of any particular species hasn't been reached by broad agreement by the editors. This should be by broad agreement by authoritative sources. And whilst there are plenty of citations, I cannot find anything that clearly indicates why a species was determined to be in that table, despite this being the entire point of the article. All of the other information, which is referenced is useful, but it is extra.
• "commonly wild-caught" doesn't relate to domestication at all. With this one inclusion virtually all species would be in this article.
• "at least occasionally captive-bred" - again this now allows the inclusion of every species of animal held in a zoo.
• 'tameable' - how can this be determined? All species are tameable with a change in genetics.
• what is the basis for any of the criteria for partial domestication? No citation or reference is provided whatsoever here. It looks suspiciously like an editor invented set of criteria. If it is, then how useful is the table at all? Does it not become unverifiable editor research?
• the criteria for partial domestication should be along the lines of "continuing domestic breeding of a self-sustaining population with minor wild stock additions" and to specifically exclude breeding done in zoos and laboratories. There should also be a reference supporting this as the origin of modern domestication. Then every species in the table needs to be tested against this with citations provided.

To me the inclusion of the empty column is both an admission of the lack of verifiability of the tables and support for such unverifiable editing and personal research. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 08:18, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

There has been editorial consensus on where to draw the line for table 1 vs table 2 vs not eligible, because we cannot always consult the experts, I don't recall the *exact* consensus we came to (check the archives if you want to know), but... it was something like: Table 1: they are a different species than the wild ancestor, or they are specifically and separately listed as "domesticated" (I think mice fall under this one)

Table 2: Specific mention of captive breeding, domestication efforts, or something similar is made on the page for the individual animal, specifically excluding captive breeding that is *only* for zoos or reintroduction programs (eg they are captive bred as pets, ranch animals, or something like that). In the table header, that's meant to be a clustered set of criteria on that last one. That is, it must be either semidomesticated, or captive bred on a commercial scale, or commonly wild caught *and* occasionally captive bred *and* tameable. The latter is mostly for things like saltwater fish, that are quite routinely kept as pets, even though many (most?) individuals sold are wild-caught rather than captive bred. Essentially, the thinking is basically that if you can commonly find it in pet stores, and at least *some* of the individuals are captive-bred, it's probably at least a *little* bit on the way to domestication.

I agree that moving from table 2 to table 1 should be a rare enough event that worries about "breaking" the table from the column change are probably irrelevant, my concern mainly lies in the other direction. That is, someone adding a species to the first table that should really be on the second. But admittedly that is *also* a fairly rare event (people have been pretty good about only adding their questionable species to the second table).

Honestly, though, if you want to improve this page, I think a more useful focus is to continue my prior efforts to clean up the truly bad entries. Prior discussion got stuck in the archives again, and I don't know if I can manually revert it again, but a while back I was going through the second table, checking everything I didn't *know* was reasonable against the individual page for the animal, and proposing deletion for the ones that didn't actually mention captive breeding, pethood, ranching, or something equivalent. I've run out of spoons for that particular project, but feel free to take up the torch. To prevent edit wars (we honestly haven't had many in a while, but we had them a *lot* relatively early on), I was proposing candidates for deletion, giving people 2 weeks to object with *some* kind of source (not necessarily a Wikipedia-worthy source, the criteria are a *bit* loose there, I'd accept things like a care sheet that mentions breeding), then nuking anything that didn't get defended. Nothing actually *did*, but I wanted to give people the chance. One of the reasons I first got involved with this page, in the edit-wars era, is that people kept removing things like leopard geckos, which... I have owned *multiple* captive-bred leopard geckos, they're basically one of the "default" starter lizards, so they've got to be at least a *little* bit domesticated by now. I didn't want to make the same mistake with some other animal commonly kept as a pet. Tamtrible (talk) 14:35, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

You have replied with "Honestly, though, if you want to improve this page, I think a more useful focus is to continue my prior efforts to clean up the truly bad entries". My point is that it is the lack of rigor, objectivity, clarity and authority that has led to these problems. Everyone will have a different view point unless it is clearly spelled out what is required.

I am going to go through the list anyway, but without clear boundaries it's going to be just my opinion. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 15:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Location of origin column

Is this column to record the origin of the wild species or where domestication first occurred? For example the Serval was first domesticated in the US but this column records its wild African origins. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 12:10, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

We... actually haven't decided that one, afaik. Until modern times, those things were pretty much the same thing. I'd be inclined to say... where the wild species was living when it was first domesticated. If you understand the perhaps subtle distinction there. Eg if Americans domesticated an animal from the Sahara desert, that only had wild populations in the Sahara desert, then the Sahara desert is the location of origin. If the species instead was introduced to the Americas, and Americans only later tried to domesticate the ones that were already there, then it'd be the Americas, even if most of the population of the species was still in Africa. Tamtrible (talk) 02:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Fuegian dog

Some comments on the entry of the Fuegian dog indicating need for edit.

• Species - the creature has not yet been given a taxonomy. There is one study (Petrigh)[3] which indicates that it is close to Lycalopex culpaeus, but not necessarily identical. This column would be my preferred area to provide a citation justifying its inclusion as fully domesticated.
• Wild ancestor - needs citation. Can use Petrigh
• Date - probably doesn't need a citation, if it does the one given is unsatisfactory. Petrigh would be better. Underlying sort value would probably be better to be -5000
• Location of origin - This is unknown. When it was discovered by Europeans this was the location. At best this could stated as probable, and I would put Tierra del Fuego rather than Argentina and Chile. Again Petrigh would probably be the most appropriate reference.
• Purposes - I only had a quick look at the sources and they seem a little contradictory. I'd need to look a but further to make any more comment, but not used for guarding. Badly needs citation.
• Degree - needs citation
• Extent - I find the wording in this column for all species somewhat confusing. What are the editors trying to get at? What is the purpose of the column?

The introduction makes it clear that only currently domesticated or tamed animals are to be considered for the tables. This is an extinct animal. Is inclusion incorrect, or the inclusion criteria? Jameel the Saluki (talk) 08:42, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm kind of inclined to give a bit of a pass to extinct taxa with a *clear* record of prior domestication. There are a couple of extinct taxa on the second table, and as long as they're clearly marked as extinct, I think it fits with the general purpose of the table. I can't meaningfully speak to your other concerns, however. Tamtrible (talk) 14:37, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

What about animals thought to have been tamed or domesticated for a short period of time, so whilst the wild variety remains, the tamed version has long disappeared? I am particularly thinking of the number of animals that the ancient Egyptians are sometimes claimed to have domesticated. Apart from the evidence usually being extremely flimsy, it's possible the domestication lasted for a short period of time a long time ago. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 14:44, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jameel the Saluki If experts fairly universally agree "This thing was domesticated, or at least clearly semi-domesticated", keep. if the supposed domestication is not well supported, I agree it should be nuked. 2600:1011:B04D:9B8F:FD64:36FE:BD74:6B78 (talk) 19:46, 18 December 2022 (UTC)