Talk:List of disappearing gun installations

Dunno if this needs population....

...or a simple Afd. If it does get fully populated, it will be a bloated, useless monstrosity, with thousands of items.

If it sticks to significant installations, it's just a (needless, you ask me) duplication of part of the main article. Thoughts? Anmccaff (talk) 00:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

You've asserted your WP:OWNership of Disappearing gun allowing only Anmccaff-approved gun installations to be added to the page. This list is meant to be a broader list of installations. Take it to AFD if you want, but you'll get push-back if you try to own this one too. The Dissident Aggressor 01:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Coordinates of existing installations

I think this list-article can be improved by adding coordinates for most or all of the installations, at least the existing ones. It is of considerable interest to readers to be able to see, in Google satellite view or Bing birds-eye view or other map view, the exact location of these. I just set up the necessary {{GeoGroup}} template and a coordinates for the 9.2 inch disappearing gun in Fort Wynyard, Cape Town, but when I go to check it in map view I think it is very slightly off. Could someone informed about that location tweak the coordinates to point exactly to the gun? Add more coodinates using {{coord}} template usages like this: {{coord|X|X|X|N|X|X|X|W|name=Name of installation}}

Also, it might be good to develop this as a table with columns for location (including coordinates) and photos and notes. --doncram 14:51, 18 October 2017 (UTC) --doncram 14:51, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Anmccaff, especially, i hope you might help with your knowledge about these. I wonder if some explicit commentary on the tactical placement of the guns can be justified and inform this article, hopefully supported by source(s) and illustrated/supported by map-view of the actual placements of guns. Are disappearing guns more likely to be placed in ambush-suitable locations, i.e. to overlook bay areas where any bombarding ship would be sort of trapped, as opposed to being placed in outward-oriented locations, relative to placement of other types of coastal guns? I am just guessing, but inspired by seeing where a couple actually are located. --doncram 15:46, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

No, the larger guns were generally put in the same sorts of locations as other armament, often at existing fort sites, where you couldn't help but know where the target was approximately. The smaller guns, not disappearing mounts in the strictest sense, that were on balanced pedestal mounts, weren't able to pop up and fire. Anmccaff (talk) 17:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Also, the Ben Buckler Gun Battery article gives 33°53'03.1"S 151°17'03.9"E as its coordinates, but I don't see any battery there at all, in satellite-view. --doncram 15:54, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Buried. A rather common fate for smaller batteries. Anmccaff (talk) 17:40, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Disappearing mounts on ships

The current list includes three ships. I note old posting, archived, at Talk:Disappearing gun/Archive 1#Naval use(?) about another:

This article says the only naval use was on the HMS Temeraire in 1877. But the link that brought me to this page was from the Japanese Aircraft carrier Hosho (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_H%C5%8Dsh%C5%8D) in which it is stated the Hosho's anti-aircraft armament was in disappearing mounts.

It appears one of the two articles has to be incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.179.104.135 (talk) 21:58, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Not every kind of disappearing gun on land is included (i.e. Maginot line's turret-lift guns are not included); should the Hosho be added or do its guns fall into some category that should not be included? If the latter, some clarification in the "Afloat" section should be added. --doncram 16:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

No. Neither should the gunboats. They used a similar system to a lift platform, but it wasn't used tactically, but rather to lower the cg of the boat for rough-water sailing. Worth mentioning briefly to distinguish them in an article, but not in a list. Anmccaff (talk) 19:58, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Okay thanks. I have revised this list-article to drop the gunboats, and revised somewhat in their mention in the disappearing gun article. --doncram 22:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

list-item notability for this list

Per discussion at Talk:Disappearing gun, not every darn installation of disappearing gun is wanted here. The standard for list-item-notability can be determined by editors here. (See, i think it is wp:SALAT about standalone list guidelines.) IMO, items here need to have specific documentation about them, with proper footnotes, establishing the former or current installation's existence and some degree of significance (I am not ready to define that degree yet). Few existing items in the list have any footnote here. Linked articles about batteries and forts might have references which can be brought over. If there is no documentation/sourcing forthcoming, some of the current items should be dropped eventually. I would prefer if any dropped items get copied to this Talk page with notes about how much searching was done, however, so as not to lose stuff permanently that might be salvaged with some effort. --doncram 22:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, one previously suggested definition for list-item-notability, when this list was part of the main article, was that every included gun should either a) be a currently existing gun, or b) have seen action. I am 100% on board for a) sufficing to be listed, because there can't be very many in the world. About b) I would be inclined to think it suffices, because to establish b you have to have a source explaining how it was in action, which sounds like it would be interesting. I could also imagine significant installations of some guns which never ended up seeing action, e.g. perhaps when their installation changed history by completely stopping/preventing piracy which had been going on beforehand, say. --doncram 22:46, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Fort Miley

There was an addition to the list before which was promptly reverted as being not significant enough for 2 guns at Fort Miley. The addition did not include any footnote; I haven't checked the Fort Miley article. Perhaps this one can be documented and restored. Other edit history of the Disappearing gun article and its Talk page might be worth reviewing, too. --doncram 22:51, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

source for 20 disappearing guns

http://cdsg.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/CDSG/CDSG%20WEBSITE%20UPDATES/CDSG%20Downloads/survive14.pdf is source I just came across, which catalogs coastal gun installations of the U.S. and also of some other countries. There are 20 hits on "disappearing" within the list. Seems reliable, definitive as a source. Excerpt:

American Seacoast Defenses

Surviving American Seacoast Artillery Weapons:

July 2014

Compiled: Lists in various CDSG publications prepared by C.L. Kimbell (1985), R.D. Zink (1989), T.C. McGovern (1992 and 1996) and Tom Batha (2014).

General Note: This is an attempt to list surviving weapons...."

--Doncram (talk) 23:01, 21 March 2018 (UTC)