Talk:List of closed secondary schools in California

Elementary Schools Closed

Since Wikipedia does not allow articles about Elementary Schools, there is no place to wikilink further information about these closed schools. Instead we offer this as a place to post such information.

Original school name	Location	Currently at this location
Lakeshore Elementary School, San Mateo	San Mateo
Latimer Elementary School	San Jose
Moreland Elementary School	San Jose	Demolished for housing (just up the street from Latimer)

Details needed

San Luis Rey High School (San Diego area)

Sections

As the list grows, it may be beneficial to add sections for county. Maybe even sections for public/private.Lionel (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What about adding sections for the different counties, and a column in the table labelled "Type" which could be "Public" or "Private"? Lionel (talk) 23:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scope

I've never seen a list like this for other eras or states. Why California? Why "1970s and 1980s"? Will Beback talk 22:15, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, I mentioned the 70s & 80s to Trackinfo. I vote for removing the decade restriction. As for california, it looks like it is modelled on List_of_high_schools_in_California. Lionel (talk) 22:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason this was created with the general restriction in the title was that there was a notable bulge in such activity during that period of time, as opposed to trying to track all school closures throughout state history. The general "Category:Defunct schools in California" could encompass the wider time period, though I see it is not kept up to the same level as this list. You will note that many, perhaps the majority of these defunct schools do not have existing article. I have personally had to create articles about a few of them, based on the limited information I could find about them. Some of it has subsequently been corrected--that's the value of WP. I've even gone so far as to contact alumni organizations of these schools, trying to get additions from someone who knows more than is available from a basic web search. For older schools I expect getting information will even be harder. Trackinfo (talk) 00:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all of that effort. Don't forget to cite your sources. The intro seems kind of vague. Would it be simpler to just say "this is a list of closed schools"? If we want to keep the explanatory text then we should cite it. Maybe including other decades would make the bugle self-evident to readers. Will Beback talk 00:06, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have the ability to rename the article. I think that takes someone higher up in the oligarchy to perform such duty. Also, I see there is one editor who insists on a more complex (or wordy) description of one high school's situation. I've tried to match that on another with an identical name switch. I'm guessing there are a lot of people who take their high school name situations seriously--that's why WP accepts each high school as being notable. Most of this kind of information is explained better and sourced within the individual articles. Trackinfo (talk) 02:13, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can move the article if we agree on a new title. Will Beback talk 02:53, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What about: List of closed high schools in California. It might not be practical to list elementary schools.

I've included a bunch of Intermediate schools, started mainly because they seem to have several cases where they have exchanged places with High Schools. Other editors have added the elementary schools, though I am certain there are many more of those, which will be even harder to document. Trackinfo (talk) 03:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I came across this list a short time ago when looking for Cubberly HS; I was surprised to see Awalt in the list of closed schools. I changed to show that MV HS rather than Awalt closed. When the table was formated, my changes were backed out and Awalt reinserted. Awalt doesn't belong in the list because Awalt was not closed. Given the reinsertion, I put in the explanation that it was not closed. Glrx (talk) 05:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Glrx: We have semantic issues that maybe somebody else can assist with. The name of Awalt High School, and identically Buchser High School has become defunct, while the physical location of those schools have assumed the name of an older school across town that was closed. Other cases have merged names into one location. Palos Verdes Peninsula High School merged three school locations into one school with a new name. That still isn't done. And there are certainly more schools to chase down--a few that come to mind are El Soreno HS in L.A., Centerville HS in Fremont and one in Sacramento whose name I can't remember. Trackinfo (talk) 08:38, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What about: List of closed secondary schools in California. (We'll stick the elementary schools on the Talk page for the time being.) Lionel (talk) 22:42, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can go for that idea. Trackinfo (talk) 00:13, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Will Beback talk 18:58, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mountain View Union HS

Didn't the school on Castro have Union in the name? See Mountain View High School (Mountain View, California) Lionel (talk) 03:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall that, but my memory is not perfect. Again, finding documentation on this kind of historical stuff has not been easy. Actually I am rather surprised as each of these schools must have thousands of alumni out there. But few have documented anything about the school history on what the search engines find. Unfortunately, now that WP is so omnipresent, its mirrors overstep a lot of other useful information. Trackinfo (talk) 03:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it to MVUHS. There were google hits that supported the Castro street HS had Union in its name. Glrx (talk) 23:03, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to Mountain View High School (Mountain View, California), "Awalt High School decided to adopt the name Mountain View." So, MVUHS didn't move, it was shut down. Awalt merely took the name. Lionel (talk) 23:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Source material supporting name MVUHS:

http://www.sfgenealogy.com/santaclara/schools/scdata2.htm Some yearbook information shows MVUHS used in 1929, but MVHS used in 1962.
http://www.mv-pa.org/history.shtml stating MVUHS built in 1927 on Castro street.
http://ilovemv.org/grown-up-activities/mountain-view-history-center/ stating it has MVUHS yearbooks from 1904 to 1981
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42587635691 giving MVUHS from 1924 to 1981

There's confusion about when the Castro campus was opened: 1924 (current article) and 1927 (mv-pa.org).

Glrx (talk) 23:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is a "closed" school?

Should a renamed or a merged school go on the list? Let's look at Daniel Murphy High School. It started off as a HS called Los Angeles College in 1926. LA College closed and St John Viannney was opened in 1954. It was renamed Daniel Murphy in the 1960s. I propose we use the "opening date" as the qualifier. E.g. in Muyphy's case:

LA College (really a HS) closed in 1954 and should be on the list.
S J Vianney didn't close-Murphy's opening date is the same as Vianney-1954. It should not be on the list due to renaming.
Murphy closed in 2008 and should be on the list.

What about PV Pen merger?

Miraleste closed and should be on the list.
"Rolling Hills HS" opened in 1964. It was renamed in 1991. Since PV Pen uses an opening date of 1964, Rolling Hills shouldn't go on the list.

By this protocol Awalt should not be on the list. What about closed & re-opened? Well, they're not closed. They probably shouldn't go on the list. Lionel (talk) 22:42, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reversing my narrow position about a school closing: a name change could go on the closed list because the name stopped being used. If somebody searched for Awalt or Vianney, then they may not find anything. It would be better if they found an entry here with a notation that the name changed. Glrx (talk) 23:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we should have a section for defunct names, even though the physical school location remains. Pius X High School, Downey, California will fit into that kind of category as well. I'm not sure what Oxford Academy (California) was before assuming that name in 1998, but it certainly was something (it looks like it was built in the 50's). We might want to consider mentioning school names moving to new locations (and, of course, causing a change/closure at the old location). Oxnard High School and Sanger Union High School immediately come to mind of recent memory. Lowell High School (San Francisco) moved in 1962. We'd have to chase Valley Christian High School (San Jose, California), which occupied Branham High School during its years of closure but had a at least one other location before that. Even Phillip & Sala Burton High School already mentioned on the list was established in 1984, but moved into what was Wilson HS in 1996 (I'm finding these tidbits as I research), so technically the old location had to have been closed. I'm vamping on ideas at this point. Certainly there is room for expansion. Trackinfo (talk) 23:31, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We can still eliminate renamed schools from the list and make them searchable: by using redirects. If you search for Vianney (and now Awalt) there is a redirect to the school with the current name. If we leave Awalt on the list, then the "Date Closed" cell, indicating 1980, is inaccurate. That's the "rename" date, not the closure date. Lionel (talk) 23:38, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Pius X, it should go on the list as closed. From the perspective of the Archdiocese, and alumni, it closed. St Matthias, it appears, has been continually operating-just a relocation. Now, do we list the old St Matthias campus as closed? Going with the criteria of "opening date", no. Lionel (talk) 23:43, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we're listing schools that have renamed/moved/closed/closed&reopened/etc. there are schools that fit multiple categories. We may be straying from the idea of a "list." Lionel (talk) 00:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With each renaming or moving situation, we are left with the old name and the new or already existing name (and then a closed location that should be addressed). Do Awalt and Buchser alumni refer to themselves as such or do they adopt the new name of the location? In a deeper sense, WP is helping explain the past existence of these schools. Since its a list, this page is essentially a referral page to further information. Unfortunately too many articles for these defunct schools don't exist yet. Until they are I think we need to have address both names here so the further information is found in a consistent manner. This seems like the best place to tie both of those names (before and after) together. Trackinfo (talk) 00:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Without endorsing any particular position on this issue, let me say that one of the advantages of lists versus categories is that they can be annotated and complex. Will Beback talk 18:46, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A source

I just found this list of Land Grant High Schools cir.1914-5 that could serve as a leaping off point. I was chasing a name of Citrus Union High School in Azusa, though any other unfamiliar names on this list is likely to have closed or changed name. If we find another similar list in the 70's we could greatly improve this list. Trackinfo (talk) 04:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC) Some candidates (based on unfamiliar names):[reply]

Jackson Joint Union High School--Jackson, Amador County--last info I find for this name is 1923, current school in the area is called Argonaut High School
Los Nietos Union High School--Downey
Citrus Union High School--Azusa--Seems related to Citrus College, but predates it by decades.
Riverview Union High School--Antioch--its a museum now and there is even a picture of it in the commons.
L.A. Polytechnic has definitely moved over the years, current location is vintage 1950's-60's. Venice is also called Polytechnic, but they are currently both in the LAUSD
King City High School, or a predecessor was apparently once called Monterey County High School
There was also a County High School in Monterey, I assume different from North Monterey County High School in Castroville of today
And a County High School in Merced
Monrovia High School or a predecessor was apparently called City High School
On this list, most high schools do have "Union" in the title, but not Mountain View
Needles has a District High School on this list
There are a several "Girls School"s in Riverside, San Francisco, Santa Barbara (one of my first articles on WP was about a 1917 graduate of SBHS but I digress)

and there are more private schools than I care to look up right now. Trackinfo (talk) 05:04, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious sources

As the person who included these sources in the article, I'll discuss my logic. While wiki related sources, or facebook style sources for that matter, do allow for self generated content and are therefore considered less reliable; 1) such sources would not have even been found had there not been a lead, such as the name of the previously existing school; 2) that the nature of the sources are alumni and historical in nature. They seem to verify pertinent facts one would expect about the existence of such a school. Perhaps my perception is limited as to the degree someone would go to perpetrate resume or information fraud, but I don't see that kind of conspiratorial nature to create a fake school web page buried somewhere deep in the internet. I take these sites on face value, that they confirm and increase the knowledge of facts only alumni of such an institution would be likely to know. Trackinfo (talk) 19:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is an issue that the community has determined. Schools aren't special. Inadequate sources can often help us find better sources, but they aren't sufficient on their own. Using an informal website for information is little different from adding information based on our own personal knowledge. It isn't automatically wrong, but for the purposes of writing an encyclopedia we can and should do better.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Berkeley,_California?t=8 is simply a mirror of Wikipedia. We might as well cut out the middle-man and link to the article directly. Berkeley, California. Will Beback talk 19:55, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Generally anything can be added to wikipedia, and doesn't even have to be sourced. However, it should be sourced in case it's challenged. And it must be sourced if challenged, else it has to be removed. I'm OK with building up the list with reasonable content for now, even w/poor sourcing, and then working out better sourcing later. Lionel (talk) 22:40, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's better to leave off a poor source. That doesn't mean we can't add the content, but until it's supported by a reliable source it's unsourced. Will Beback talk 22:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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