Talk:List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2000–2004

Untitled

Comments are welcome, as this may still be too big of a page, although I think dividing it into a sub-page is justified. This suggestion came from John_B123.Historyday01 (talk) 01:17, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Confirmation and the use of secondary sources

I'm posting this to head off any criticism of this article that secondary sources are used to prove the LGBTQ identities of the characters listed on this page. This is similar to what I posted on the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 1990–1994 talk page, but I am posting it here as well. According to WP:YTCOPYRIGHT, specifically the original research section,

All material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source. This means a reliable published source must exist for it, whether or not it is cited in the article. Sources must support the material clearly and directly: drawing inferences from multiple sources to advance a novel position is prohibited by the NOR policy. Base articles largely on reliable secondary sources. While primary sources are appropriate in some cases, relying on them can be problematic. For more information, see the Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources section of the NOR policy, and the Misuse of primary sources section of the BLP policy.

Furthermore, on WP:NOR, it says:

Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

As such, citing sources like IGN, pride.com, Comic Book Resources, New York Times, USA Today, Okazu (Erica Friedman's yuri review blog), T.H.E.M. Anime Reviews, Funimation, Animation Magazine, and many others cited on the main page, are totally acceptable. When it comes to anime, official sites often are limited in the characters they talk about (usually only the protagonists, not the secondary characters for the most part) or give the characters biographies by putting text within images, making translation of the text impossible unless you are fluent in Japanese. This also means that primary sources are NOT necessarily needed to show the LGBTQ identity of any of the characters listed on this page. Such sources are nice, like in the case of Re: Cutie Honey, Venture Bros., Mirage of Blaze, Cheeky Angel, Fruits Basket, and Red vs. Blue, but they are not always available, especially if the show is an anime or is relatively obscure, and are also not necessary!

I just thought I'd point this out before some editor comes along and tries to remove content here. Historyday01 (talk) 14:13, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Entries which need better sources

Since The Daily Fandom is not a reliable source and others need better sources, so they are here as a result. The same is the case for Girls Bravo, for Kosame (https://www.fujitv.co.jp/b_hp/girlsbravo/backnumber/204000013-1.html, https://www.fujitv.co.jp/b_hp/girlsbravo/backnumber/204000013-2.html) and Hijiri Kanata (https://www.fujitv.co.jp/b_hp/girlsbravo/backnumber/204000013-6.html, https://www.fujitv.co.jp/b_hp/girlsbravo/backnumber/204000013-8.html, https://www.fujitv.co.jp/b_hp/girlsbravo/backnumber/204000013-9.html, https://www.fujitv.co.jp/b_hp/girlsbravo/backnumber/204000013-10.html).

Duration	Show title	Character debut date	Characters	Identity	Notes	Country
2003	Ikki Tousen: Battle Vixens	August 6, 2003	Chinkyuu Koudai	Lesbian	Ryofu's childhood friend and lesbian lover, and a C-rank fighter with great potential. While Ryofu was battling Totaku, Chinkyuu knocked out Kaku to prevent her from interfering. Kaku got her revenge later on, and when Chinkyuu recovered from her injuries, she saves Ryofu from being killed by Myosai. However, she realizes that Ryofu is moments away from dying and since she was loyal and in love with Ryofu, Chinkyuu decides to stay by her friend's side and commits suicide with her instead of surrendering to Sousou as shown in the episode "A Confrontation With Destiny."	Japan
		August 16, 2003	Ryofu Housen	Bisexual	She has had sexual relations with guys and girls, notably Saji and Chinkyuu. In the anime adaptation, Ryofu is a capable fighter, but more promiscuous than her manga counterpart, as shown when she molests Ryomou.
		August 20, 2003	Kanu Uncho	Lesbian	She is deeply in love with Ryuubi, admitting it her friend, Koukin, and even fantasizes about Ryuubi doing intimate things with her. She is also a skilled fighter.
	Godannar	October 15, 2003	Shadow Dunaway		Shadow and Luna are partners on the giant American robot Genesister. They share romantic feelings for each other as shown in episodes like "Ice Cold Smile" and "Genesister Out of Control!," even sharing a kiss.
			Luna
2003–2008	The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy	June 13, 2003	Dean Toadblatt	Gay	It was revealed in a 2005 episode, "One Crazy Summoner," that Dean Toadblatt and Squidhat were gay lovers. Notably, Dean Toadblatt is a parody of Albus Dumbledore from J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter book series, a series which the show had parodied before, who was revealed to be gay on October 19, 2007. Thus, the episode unintentionally guessed Dumbledore's orientation.	United States
			Squidhat
2004–2012	Bleach	March 22, 2005	Sui Feng	Lesbian	Sui, also known as Soifon and born with the name of Fēng Shāolíng, is the commander of the Onmitsukidō militia. During the series she has two partners she works with: a woman, Yoruichi Shihōin, who she mentored, and a man, Marechiyo Ōmaeda. However, she only shows affection toward Yoruichi, calling her "so noble, so beautiful and so terrifyingly strong" in the manga, and remains protective of her, while Yoruichi flirts with her, in episodes like "The Past Chapter Begins! The Truth from 110 Years Ago," As such, she is distressed when Yoruichi disappears, works to rebuild the Onmitsukidō militia. and later fights with her face-to-face in the episodes "The Strongest Shinigami! Ultimate Confrontation Between Teacher and Students" and "Supersonic Battle! Determine the Goddess of Battle." Sui later breaks down after hearing Yoruichi saying that she feels that Sui disappointed, betrayed, and abandoned her, and refuses to fight Yoruichi anymore, as shown in the episode "Senbonzakura, Crushed! Zangetsu Thrusts through the Sky," and they become friends again, ultimately.	Japan
2004–2005	Girls Bravo	July 27, 2004	Kosame	Lesbian	Kosame is one of Lisa Fukuyama's bodyguards who works alongside Hayate. After fighting Kirie Kojima, she formed an attraction to and eventually fell in love with her, beginning at her debut episode. Kosame's most notorious plot point is her love for Kirie Kojima.
		March 31, 2005	Hijiri Kanata		She serves as a subordinate for Yukina, and she had been obsessed with Miharu since they were both children, with Yukina saying she will give Miharu to her in an effort to achieve her goals. But when Hijiri is defeated by Kirie, she then begins to obsess over Kirie.
2004	DearS	September 2004	Mitsuka Yoshimine	Bisexual	Mitsuka is an exhibitionist high school English teacher, who often strips down to her lingerie during classes, makes her students read erotic stories, openly asks about their sex lives and flirts with them from the first episode. She is also a porn actress, who makes her own original videos, and constantly interprets everything around her in a sexual way, as indicates in the show's first and ninth episodes, for example. She is attracted to boys and girls, sometimes seen flirting with her male student Takeya, and her female "DearS" (human-like aliens) students Ren and Miu in the show's fifth and seventh episodes.

References

Merge proposal

I propose that this list be merged with List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2005–2009. I understand that generally, per WP:SPLITLIST, a list or table should be "kept as short as is feasible for its purpose and scope." However, per WP:SALAT, "Lists that are too specific are also a problem." I see the division of "2000-2004" and "2005-2009" to be arbitrary and unhelpful to users. Such a merger may be helpful to selection criteria and make it easier for users to add content, allowing the lists to be more of a "valuable information source" as noted on WP:LISTPURP as one of the purposes of lists.

Although I am aware that prose isn't a necessarily great determinant when it comes to list size, I think it is worth pointing out that the readable prose of this page and List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2005–2009 fall under the guidelines as stated on WP:SIZERULE, since Prosesize, it comes to a total of 2669 of prose size, far below what is stated on WP:SPLITLIST, for what constitutes a split. If this merger was completed, this page would be renamed "List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2000–2009", with the 2005-2009 content merged into this page.

Since this page was split arbitrarily into two sections ("2000-2004" and "2005-2009") by me years ago without any discussion (I wish I had done it better back then), I wanted to open this up to discussion, hopefully to get some more thoughts on this topic since I am considering, possibly, merging other lists in the future. Please note whether you support, oppose, or have other comments related to this merger.Historyday01 (talk) 02:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you first create a page in draft namespace and make sure that the merged page isn't too big that templates start failing or loading the page is longer. Gonnym (talk) 17:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, that isn't a bad idea, I suppose. Now that the guidance on SPLITLIST has been changed to remove "bytes" (there was once a column for that) and only focus on "words", I'm not really sure how to calculate if a list is "too big" or "too small" anymore... In any case, my hope with this discussion was to get some more eyes on this because looking back, it appears arbitrarily split the page back in 2020 but never proposed a discussion or shared it anywhere, I just boldly did it. I don't have an issue with bold actions, as I think in certain cases they can be good... but I'm a different person, in terms of my approach on here, than I was back then. So, I thought a discussion made more sense. Historyday01 (talk) 21:48, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok, here's what the final page would look like: here. It's 206,756 bytes. Not sure how many words that translates into. Historyday01 (talk) 14:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

With a page copy-paste to Word, I count 19000 words, which is over the WP:TOOBIG guidance. Hence, I oppose the merge on these grounds. Klbrain (talk) 16:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. That's fair. That's a good way to measure a page size. I just put it into LibreOffice (I ended my Microsoft Office subscription earlier this year because it was getting too expensive) and it told me its 19,859 words. Now, even if that is reduced and we get rid of some of the content, I can guess it probably still is over 15,000 words. I'll withdraw my merger proposal shortly, but I would like to know if you think the division of the two pages into 2000-2004 and 2005-2009 is still good, or if they should be divided some other way.Historyday01 (talk) 16:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

The division into 'half decades' seems like a reasonable approach; if we were starting from scratch, I might pedantically argue for 2001-2005 (etc), but given that we have a structure in place it would seem churlish to break it. Particularly given that we also have List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2010–2014, List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2015–2019 ... Klbrain (talk) 18:36, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, ok. I do think it's better to have 2000-2004 because otherwise, the "2000" one would have to be, presumably, merged in the 1990s article. It may be time, to do the same on List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2020–present soon, and make a List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2020–2024 page, after 2024 comes to a close (as some series could slip in during this month or next month), as it is over 25,000 words when I put it into LibreOffice. I would be happy to have a discussion about the latter possible split on Talk:List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2020–present. Just to reiterate, based on what you've said and our conversation since August, I'm withdrawing this merger. However, I am still glad we had this discussion.Historyday01 (talk) 21:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)