Talk:List of aces of aces

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	National militaries task force

Aviation: Biography

This article is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.AviationWikipedia:WikiProject AviationTemplate:WikiProject Aviationaviation

This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar and style: not checked Supporting materials: not checked	To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: \| b1<!--Referencing and citation--> = <yes/no> \| b2<!--Coverage and accuracy --> = <yes/no> \| b3<!--Structure --> = <yes/no> \| b4<!--Grammar and style --> = <yes/no> \| b5<!--Supporting materials --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion.

This article is supported by the aerospace biography project.

Awards Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Awards, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of awards and prizes on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AwardsWikipedia:WikiProject AwardsTemplate:WikiProject Awardsawards
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Lists Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Tanker Aces

Person	Country of service	War	Time
Michael Wittman	Third Reich (Germany)	World War Two	— 8 August 1944	A panzer ace.
Sydney V. Radley-Walters	Canada	World War Two	— end of WWII

Is this section OR Tank Ace or Panzer Ace is a term well used by video game companies and one or two book titles but is there anything concrete ? How did you become a Tank/Panzer Ace. Michael Wittmann was not even the top scoring German tnk commander. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 09:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I've seen the definition as "10 kills" to become a tank ace. And "Panzer Ace" is not used by a book or two, it is used by a whole lot of books.[1][2][3][4] Most aces are German or Soviet, because that's where the tank battles took place. This is a temporal list, so the title passes on when the tanker is killed. I may have erred on putting Wittmann on the list (he may have been only the top ace of the Western Front for the Nazis), but Radley-Walters was the top ace of the west for the allies for the War. It doesn't matter that Wittmann didn't have the most kills at the end of the war, only the most kills at the time of his death. (see the part for fighter pilots, where there's more than one per country listed) 76.66.196.218 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Yes and the same authors uses Infantry Aces [5], [6] its just a catchy book title which was not used by anyone to describe the tank commanders or is the a reliable source ? --Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well "Overlord: D-Day and the battle for Normandy" by 'Max Hastings' published in 1984, claims that Wittmann was at one point the greatest Panzer ace of the war. That's not a book published by Stackpole. And "Caen: Anvil of Victory" by 'Alexander McKee' was published in 1964 and uses tank ace. 76.66.196.218 (talk) 12:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So may I safely assume that you are going to expand the list? Missing are at least the following German aviators.

Kurt Welter, Top scoring Jet ace of WW2
Gordon Gollob, First pilot to achieve 150 aerial victories in WW2
Hermann Graf, First pilot to achieve 200 aerial victories in WW2
Walter Nowotny, First pilot to achieve 250 aerial victories in WW2
Wolfgang Schnaufer, Top scoring night fighter ace of WW2
Hans-Ulrich Rudel, Top scoring tank buster of WW2

German tank commanders

Kurt Knispel, Top scoring tank commander of WW2

and what about the French, English, South African, Australian, etc.MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is a {{listdev}} on this article, it has {{stub}} templates on the bottom, so it is incomplete. Assuming that it is complete is a mistake. And as it does have a listdev and stub templates, and Wikipedia is a something that anyone can edit, I'd assume that I wouldn't be the only one working on it. I shouldn't need to put an {{underconstruction}} on the article, since it's being slowly built. 76.66.196.218 (talk) 12:15, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tank "Aces" from the South Ossetia War

I'm not sure why these two Russian tankers are listed here. Neither meets the criteria for a tank ace (10 kills). Mrdarklight (talk) 02:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move - 2009

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I suggest to rename the article to "List of ace of aces" to clearly distinguish the article from Ace of Aces. I don't think that the capitalization of single letters should be used for disambiguation purposes. MisterBee1966 (talk) 19:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization of single letters can be used for disambiguation purposes, just not in this particular case. The reason it can't be used is that the current title violates our capitalization guideline (as it's not a proper name, it's supposed to be "Ace of aces"). The "List of X" format should always have X in plural. Did you mean "List of aces of aces"? I think a better solution would be to move Ace of aces to Ace of aces (disambiguation) and this page to Ace of aces. Jafeluv (talk) 20:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

prefer Jafeluv Ace of aces and moving the dab page. And the Ace of Aces page should also be moved to Ace of Aces (game)... 76.66.196.218 (talk) 03:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's a list article, so the article's title should start "List of ..."; looks like it should be List of Aces of Aces if Ace of Aces is a title whose plural is Aces of Aces. Baileypalblue (talk) 04:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "Ace of aces" is a common noun, so the correct capitalization would be "List of aces of aces". See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). Jafeluv (talk) 10:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Glancing at the article references that are available online, it looks like "ace of aces" is more common than "Ace of Aces". Still seems like a proper noun to me, but I'm fine with List of aces of aces if that meets with broader approval. Baileypalblue (talk) 07:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Either way, the article should be edited so its title and uses of the term are consistent. Baileypalblue (talk) 07:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to List of aces of aces or what ever the correct grammar here is. This is a list and should be so named. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like we've got a consensus for List of aces of aces, so I've made the page move. Baileypalblue (talk) 08:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fighter ace of aces

You are going to need more articles than this just to contain this list. Under the definition given, tracing the "Ace of aces" only through World War I will take an article longer than the present one. Eight national services, a dozen or so title changes each during the war...I shouldn't be surprised if it made for a hundred item list.

The era between the World Wars is entirely uncovered. There was a Spanish Civil War, you know, and the American Volunteer Group....

Then there is World War II, which will be a humongous list all by itself....

I dunno, this article seems to be hastily conceived, ill-defined, and ultimately a trivial fanboy exercise. I can glance down the list and spot popular misconceptions galore, as the research is scanty. If you do finally correct all the errors, you still end up with trivia.

Georgejdorner (talk) 14:44, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, things have gone just about as badly as I thought, here in Fanboyville.

There was no definition of a flying ace as one having scored five victories until 1918. Also, the aerial victory crediting systems used varied from meticulous to nonexistent during WWI. In essence, history is being faked. And badly. Fanboys seem unaware there were Belgian, Russian, and Austro-Hungarian "aces". No one knows that Frederick Libby was the first American ace. And the current errors go on and on.

But at least there is Aerial victory standards of World War I available, so that a reader may learn the attributes of an aerial victory. So far as I know, this is the only war in which you can discover just why someone was credited a victory. That means anyone writing about aerial victories after World War I knows not what they are discussing. How can you write sensibly about an undefined term?

I could rant on pointing out mistakes until my fingers cramp, to no avail.This article is such a mass of mistaken facts and b.s. it should be eliminated.Georgejdorner (talk) 05:44, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have created approximately 1,000 bios of WWI aces. Never, in any source, have I ever seen the phrase "ace of aces". Ever.Georgejdorner (talk) 07:43, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

South African Flag

I altered the icon next to the entry for South African ace Marmaduke Pettle to reflect the flag of South Africa at the time of World War two. The article used to have the current "rainbow flag" instead of the flag that was used pre-94. I would have put this down to a simple mistake, but there is a pattern of some person or person going arounf Wikipedia and removing all the pre-94 flag icons from articles.

Look, I understand that to many black South Africans, the subject of the old "National Party" era flag is something of a sore subject. But the use of that flag in this context is historically correct. Look at the German entires in this article, for example. They use the flags that were flying over the country at the time the specific pilot was active: ie either the Imperial German flag or that of the Nazi state rather than the curreent flag. Please don't change this.

Hal Turner Fan (Uuser talk:Hal Turner Fan) 0826 April 2013 (CST)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hal Turner Fan (talk • contribs) 14:26, 5 March 2013‎ (UTC)[reply]

There's something wrong with his listing, the time does not list the time he held the title of "Ace of aces", it lists his lifetime, which is wrong. It should start from the time he acquired the title, and end either when the war ends, or when he was no longer serving (died, captured, mustered out, etc). Since it is a record for WWII, it can't start in 1914. The end date is correct if his kills were the highest of the war, then his death date would mark the end of his tenure as ace of aces. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 02:25, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mohammad Rayyan

Mohammad Rayyan also shot down a Gulfstream III, which is a civil aircraft. Does it count to the Rayyan's scores?Diako1971 04:28, 20 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diako1971 (talk • contribs)

Eddie Rickenbacker

What does "Succeeded Luke on his death" mean? Who is Luke? -- SGBailey (talk) 10:54, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's Frank Luke. It was deleted with this edit [7] for no reason I can see. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 10:42, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As the title "Ace of Aces" is accorded to the leading active ace of a particular conflict by country, if an ace is killed or captured, they are no longer active. And as one ace exceeds the number of kills of another, the title is passed on, so removing aces who held the title because someone who is dead had a greater kill count is wrong. Removing aces because they had been surpassed but at one time held the title is also wrong. (it's a temporal succession list) -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 10:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kills?

Regarding the submarine aces, do we have to call ships sunk "kills"? Kills implies the death of human beings and any submarine ace would tell you that their job was not to "kill", but rather to deny the enemy military supplies. Many submarine commanders on all sides risked their lives and those of their crews to ensure that as few people were killed as possible. Wouldn't "victories" be a more accurate way to describe the scores of the aces in terms of ships sunk? Ianbrettcooper (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tank aces

I removed the section tagged WP:OR tagged since 2009; pls also see German tank aces. Please let me know of any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:43, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why that? There what part of this section was an OR? Just because someone tagged it does not mean that's for a reason. --2003:84:AC3C:800:F9A6:359F:BA8F:DF2D (talk) 12:31, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One per country

If ace of aces means the top ace in a given country, then there can only be one per country. The USA seems to have more aces than anyone, certainly more than one. Wallie (talk) 15:52, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Only one at a time. Note the dates for the US WWI fighter aces, for example: Lufbery Oct 16-15 May 18, Baer 15-18 May 18, Bayliss 18 May-12 Jun 18, Putnam 12 Jun-12 Sep 18, Rickenbacker 29 Sep 18-end of war. (Luke, who was killed on 29 Sep 18, should be listed between Putnam and Rickenbacker.) 71.235.184.247 (talk) 21:21, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on List of aces of aces. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:52, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Georg Ritter von Trapp

Georg von Trapp? Top Austrian submarine commander.

Original research?

I’ve flagged this page as original research. The introduction claims, without any source to back it up, that an 'ace of aces' is the title accorded to the top active ace within a branch of service in a nation's military in time of war; and each section repeats the claim for its particular group, again without any sources for any of them. Moreover this article, and some of its sections, have been tagged for lack of verification for between 2-6 years, with no attempt to fix it.
There is also confusion whether this term applies progressively to each successive ace (as with the American fighter aces listed), or to the top-scoring ace of a nation in a given conflict. Some of the people listed here are claimed to have been called 'Ace of aces' (though none of them seem to be backed up in this by the source provided) while others are described as their countries top-scoring ace. Certainly no-one ever referred to Malcolm Wanklyn, or Ben Bryant, or Johnnie Walker, as aces of aces, though they were all top-scoring commanders in their field.
And 'Aces of the Deep' is a video game.
This should either be a list of top-scoring aces per country/per conflict, (and be moved to that title) or a verifiable list of people who have been acclaimed as 'ace of aces' by a reliable source.
Alternately, as we already have list articles on fighter pilots, submarine commanders (well, German ones at least), snipers, and all manner of other military personnel, maybe it’d be better to dump the whole mess as a bad joke. Xyl 54 (talk) 15:54, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This page has information on it not on the other sub pages, for instance, the tank aces page doesn't include a list of tank aces. I think any original research should be removed, but there is plenty of references information here, no need to simply delete the whole page. It's a convenient page for the wikipedia user. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:01, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tank aces

I've added an extra tank aces, and added a column for "number of tanks destroyed" - this is generally information that is discussed in this context. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Removed Kurt Knispel due to lack of verification

Knispel was celebrated by the historical fiction writer Kurowski in Panzer Aces, and Kurowski is the first reference for all mentions of the supposed 168 kills attributed to Knispel when chasing sources through bibliographies. As such, it has been judged to be a fabrication, and any new information to say otherwise regarding Knispel should be put forth here and in the talk page for Kurt Knispel. The two unsatisfactory references were removed from this page as well. Mewnst (talk) 03:47, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

October 2021 edits

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "Submarine & tank aces are not a thing; e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Submarine ace". In addition, please see Panzer ace. --K.e.coffman (talk) 14:53, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

K.e.coffman you can't simply delete a page without discussion by redirecting it, without concensus.Deathlibrarian (talk) 14:38, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "REDIRECT to Flying ace -- irredeemable OR around an apparently made-up concept; best redirect target". --K.e.coffman (talk) 13:16, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sub ace

And no Otto Kretschmer? This list is a joke. 2A00:20:D00A:94A4:6C9A:5E95:3F2A:242A (talk) 13:33, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All "Ilya Andreevich Sizov" references are in Russian language. It should not be valid to show him as Ace providing no proof in English

All "Ilya Andreevich Sizov" references are in Russian language. It should not be valid to show him as Ace providing no proof in English 147.161.224.246 (talk) 11:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lacie Hester

Seems odd to include her 70 aerial victories against drones. Surely the victories of the Ukrainian and Russian pilots mentioned would massively increase, not to mention we'd need to add a tonne of other pilots. If drone kills are to be added, I suggest it be a different section. 43MZrinyiII (talk) 02:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]