Talk:List of X-Men members/Archive 5

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New Additions (2018)

Strong Guy - /* New Mutants */ - Is there indication that New Mutants: Dead Souls are the "New Mutants Squad of X-Men". If not, then could Strong Guy be an inclusion into the Splinter New Mutants team?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomahawk1221 (talk • contribs) 22:00, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

The series hasn't begun yet, so it shouldn't even be mentioned on this page yet, just like hypothetical/anticipated (but as yet unconfirmed) X-Men Red #2 changes shouldn't be listed yet. Please wait until the comics actually come out. DeadpoolRP (talk) 12:42, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Define the List

I think we need to come up with a definition for who belongs on this list. Through the 90s it was pretty evident but now the list is exploding out of control. A few examples:

Xorn, who was an infiltrator. Other infiltrators are listed in "Other Status", we need to be consistent. Then we have the students. These are hard to define, but recently Rockslide, Oya, Anole and Glob were added when along with Pixie and Armor, they are collectively called TRAINEES. They are already on the list for X-Men in training.

Gazing Nightshade and Daken are most certainly Substitute X-Men who appeared in one small arc of X-Men Blue because the main team was in a different timeline. There's a category for Substitute X-Men.

Strong Guy and Shatterstar formerly appeared on the list just because they appear in the background of Phoenix Resurrection. Now I see they've been removed. Just appearing in missions or being part of the greater X-Family doesn't earn a spot on the list as being part of the main X-Men team. Others I question include Ink (yes he appeared on a mission with the main team but he's still a trainee), Legion (the X-Men and New Mutants have helped him, but he's not one of them). There are other questionable entries on the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oopla32606 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct. However, I've been watching this page for years now. There was an official marvel handbook published perhaps 5 years ago and that was the basis for "official" membership. Since that printing, "official" status of characters has been subjective and a source of debate. I agree with you about the Trainee designation and finding them as members of the core team. So, without an up-to-date official marvel publication of "official" status, any new membership could be, not always, up to interpretation and debate, sadly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:285:8280:3090:BDC7:676B:41B3:61FA (talk) 02:15, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Splintered X-Men Teams?

We all know that X-Men functioned as an official squad until 2001 when for the first time, Storm went away to create a splinter X-Treme X-Men team. Similarly in recent years, we have seen that Magneto has created its own Uncanny and Blue teams. But should there members be included in offical X-Men member list? I think NO. As we can see that Kitty Pryde has the official license to use X-Men and that should be considered an official team only. I am thinking about removing splintered team members (i.e Magneto's Uncanny and Blue X-Men) from the official list. Please let me know if its fine with you. Following are the splintered teams which called themselves X-Men but doesn't trace the history from official X-Men lineage.

• Storm's X-Treme X-Men (splintered group in start and later merged when Claremont was assigned to uncanny in mid 2000s)
• Magneto's Uncanny X-Men and X-Men Blue lineups.
• X-Men Red?
• Astonishing X-Men vol 2 Squad?
• After Schism, Cyclops and Wolverine both created their X-Men. As wolverine opened the school and it was wolverine's team which Kitty Pryde took so i think we can call Wolverine team the official one and keep Cyclops' team in splinter group. But its debateable. For now, I am keeping post Schism members in the list.

Please let me know about your feedback. Thanks --Shoxee1214 (talk) 12:10, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

No thanks. The list is fine as it is. Also you don't need to post your comment in the top of the talk page. The newest comment/section should always be at the bottom of the page. Don't do that again. Thanks.TheHotwiki (talk) 13:23, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

This list is controversial at best but as it stands it's the best representation of "official" status. For instance, Storm's X-Treme squad contains lifeguard and slipstream. They are considered "official" in the "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A To Z" - Volume 13 (https://www.amazon.com/Official-Handbook-Marvel-Universe-13/dp/0785141782). We cannot just pick and choose from those that aren't designated as "splinter" or "official" since its publishing in 2010. Just my 2 cents.. 2601:285:8280:3090:F893:A030:9DC2:F9D9 (talk) 19:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Hotwiki, what is your rationale or proof/source Glob, Rockslide, and Anole did NOT join? I have that 1st issue and I'm wondering how you came to the conclusion they didn't join. 2601:285:8280:3090:5805:E88A:ADB1:355A (talk) 19:20, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Post your reference first here.TheHotwiki (talk) 21:31, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Dawn of X - New Additions

Starting the discussion to add members to: 1. X-Force (presumably: Kid Omega - Sage - Marvel Girl - Beast - Black Tom) 2. Excalibur (Presumably: Apocalypse - Rictor - Rogue - Gambit - Jubilee) 3. Fallen Angels (Kid Cable - Kwannon/Psylocke - X-23, with possibility of Bling! and Husk in future lineups/issues) 4. Marauders new section and cast 5. New Mutants (Mondo - Chamber) 2601:285:8280:3090:608D:ABFE:3D2D:57B (talk) 03:05, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Chronology of members

Wouldn't it be much more useful to list characters by 1st appearance, rather than when they officially joined the team?

The X-Men is a franchise that spans 7 decades, dozens of creators, and at least 3 ages of comics. Silver age characters should be listed at the beginning, followed by Bronze, and Copper, Modern, etc.

Even now, we have them here listed by decades. That's very useful. Now, if only we could have the characters listed in the decades they were introduced, rather than when they officially joined the team (or perhaps both). Also, a "created by" (Lee-Kirby, Claremont-Byrne, etc.) column could be rather useful.

Thank you very much for considering this, and for all of your excellent work on this great page.

68.191.50.56 (talk) 11:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)Matt Grillo, March 15, 2020

no TheHotwiki (talk) 14:39, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

The problem with this is that their first appearance may have nothing to do with the X-Men as a team.

• Magneto was introduced in 1963, but remained just another super-villain until he joined the X-Men in 1985.
• Wolverine was introduced as a Hulk foe, and was not connected to the X-Men until he joined a revamped team in 1975.
• Mystique was introduced as a Ms. Marvel villain, became a main foe of the X-Men in the early 1980s, and joined the X-Men ranks in the 2000s.
• Rogue was introduced as an Avengers villain, and had minimal interactions with the X-Men until she joined them in 1983.
• Namor was introduced in 1939, and did not join the X-Men until 2009. Dimadick (talk) 09:24, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree that organizing them based on when they joined is much better than organizing them based on when they first appeared. DeadpoolRP (talk) 11:33, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Other status, X-Corporation, X-Men-in-Training, etc.

Because it is important to keep conversation and disagreement on here civil, I wanted to bring up the recurring problem of massive changes being made to the page without any discussion on the talk page. It has long been the status quo on the page to discuss big changes before they're made because there's a long history on this page of disagreement, discussion, and compromise about the characters to be included on the list, which isn't always clear, and when big sections are removed without discussion, it undermines the work, discussion, and compromise that have previously taken place in the talk page. So, here are four sections that have been removed from the page that I believe should be restored unless a convincing argument against their inclusion can be made that is agreed to by others:

• Other status is a section that features many characters specifically called X-Men or honorary X-Men in the comics themselves, as well as infiltrators, allies, and other characters whose status is unclear. Many of them were listed in the other status section as a compromise between contributors who wanted them in the main list and contributors who wanted them excluded from the list. For a single user to unilaterally remove all of them because that's what that one user wants to do doesn't make sense when the decision to include them was a compromise worked out among multiple users working towards a consensus. Many of these characters were featured main characters in a main X-Men title (Oya and Kid Apocalypse, for example), were listed on the recap/members pages of main X-Men titles (Cerebra, for example), were called X-Men in the comics (Doop, for example), or were called honorary X-Men in the comics (Candy Southern, Energizer, Fiz, etc.). I vote that we return to the compromise position of restoring the expanded list of other status characters--especially when you consider that the one character that remains in that section (beyond the infiltrators) has a weak rationale for inclusion: he claims to be a member and that his power has caused others to forget that he's a member (maybe that's true, but we only have his word for it). Then if there are specific characters that people want to remove, we can go through them one at a time and discuss removing them.
• X-Corporation, according to at least one line of reasoning, is more worthy of inclusion on this page than splinter teams like the original Excalibur and X-Force teams, the government and corporate X-Factor teams, etc., because it was started by Xavier himself, and he specifically described the organization as "trained X-Men" stationed around the globe in Grant Morrison's New X-Men series. Marvel's handbook editors decided to count them as a separate team since they weren't part of the main X-Men team based at the mansion in New York, and I understand that distinction and don't disagree with it, but they're still much closer to official X-Men than the other splinter teams despite not having their own title--they were instead featured fairly prominently in arcs of the main X-Men titles at the time: New X-Men, X-Treme X-Men, and Uncanny X-Men.
• X-Men-in-Training is a group of official X-Men members per Marvel's own membership system and handbooks. They are, again, much more official and central to a list of X-Men membership than Excalibur, etc., and are equivalent to X-Club, the Street Team X-Men, Cyclops and Wolverine's black-ops X-Force team, etc., as official members of an official X-Men team. I fully support the removal from the bottom of the page of all of the separate student squads that predate the official training squad, as well as the gigantic list of students not affiliated with any of the student squads, and I would definitely support removing the New X-Men and Young X-Men splinter teams from the bottom of the page to avoid redundancy (given that New X-Men was the official X-Men training squad, as Emma explained to the New X-Men squad when they formed, and Young X-Men was its continuation, so they're not loose splinter teams but part of the actual X-Men organization). They're an official X-Men sub team just like X-Club and X-Force were during the Utopia era and should be listed with the other sub teams, not as a tertiary splinter team. They went on official missions in their capacity as X-Men-in-training. They're much more relevant to a list of X-Men members than splinter team members like, say, Widget, Wild Child, and Copycat.
• Ancillary teams--as Tomahawk1221 has pointed out, this is another compromise section listing X-teams less closely related to the main X-Men (like X-Statix, Banshee's X-Corps squad that included villains, etc.), as well as related/ally teams like Alpha Flight, Big Hero 6, the Starjammers, etc. It doesn't take up much space, and I vote to restore it.

I'm not sure who else has been active lately in editing this page, but I would request thoughts and comments from Tomahawk1221, Hotwiki, J Greb, Phoenix741, StarSpangledKiwi, Archimedean, Ultrabasurero, Gijimu, and Comic master. I don't always agree with you guys, and I'm sure you don't always agree with me, but I respect your feedback. (I'm not sure if linking to their pages like this is enough to notify them that their feedback is requested, so I'll try to leave notes on their talk pages over the next few days too.) DeadpoolRP (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Again this is a list of members not allies or ancillary teams. You are also ignoring the fact this article is simply too long and cluttered with the other things. Stay in topic. X-Corporation isn't a splinter team. If you want a list of X-Men allies and ancillary teams, feel free to create a separate article for those. This is a List of X-Men members. I can even argue that splinter teams such as X-Factor aren't the X-Men but you don't see me deleting splinter teams. Like I've mentioned, if this article is up for review, a lot MORE clutter would be removed. TheHotwiki (talk) 12:49, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm glad to see this finally being discussed. In lieu of discussing the intricacies of the recent MAJOR deletions, I'd like to explore one major issue at hand. What is the wikipedia policy on people who wholesale decide on sweeping changes that people have worked on for many years? What is wikipedia's policy on contributors who assume control of all decisions and edits? What is wikipedia's stance on people who strongarm edits and then as a response to a request for discussion, only threaten more sweeping deletions based on a hypothetical review? What is wikipedia's response to users who use a veiled tactic of claiming harassment when in fact it is they who are overstepping the bounds of decency, as it relates to a common stage for everybody? These are not accusatory questions as this is EXACTLY what has taken place here (ie: there is no debate). To go so far as saying X-Factor aren't the X-Men and that we're just lucky you haven't decided (for everyone) that you want to delete splinter teams as well; this is a serious infraction on what this entire platform is about.

I agree with DeadpoolRP, who I've had disagreements and compromises in the past, but this type of assumed authority cannot, and will not stand.. Tomahawk1221 (talk) 20:44, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Some observations on the teams and their depictions.:

• X-Corporation was depicted as a worldwide organization, with offices around the world and its own administration. They only appeared for a few years, but readers were introduced to their operatives in Amsterdam, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Melbourne, Mumbai, and Paris. They were closely affiliated to the X-Men, if not X-Men themselves.
• X-Men-in-Training consisted of students of the Xavier insistute who were upgraded to combat operatives. A relatively large group of characters, with some of them getting the spotlight treatment at times.
• X-Statix was a group of adventurers, who played superheroes in exchange for fame and fortune. Other than some interactions with Professor X and Wolverine, they were not closely affiliated to the X-Men. They were featured as in-name-only successors to X-Force.
• X-Corps was only around for a single storyline, and they were depicted as rivals to the X-Men. In-story they were a paramilitary organization, with several of the members mind-controlled into joining the team. On a sidenote, nearly every surviving member of then-recently defunct Generation X joined the X-Corps.
• Alpha Flight have served as both allies and enemies of the X-Men since their original introduction. Several characters have served in both teams. As an X-Men spin-off title, they have been fairly prominent. But they were never extensions of the X-Men either in-universe or as a concept.
• Big Hero 6 is a bit of curiosity. A group of Japanese adventurers who have had a crossover with Alpha Flight. A couple of former X-Men and allies have joined the team, but I am not certain if the X-Men have even met the Big Hero 6 in a story.
• Starjammers are depicted as a group of heroic space pirates, founded by the father of veteran X-Men Cyclops and Havok. The X-Men and Starjammers have frequently allied with each other, several X-Men have joined the Starjammers, and at least one Starjammer (Hepzibah) has joined the X-Men. They are a closely affiliated team, if not an extension of the X-Men in space. Dimadick (talk) 21:29, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Its not different from the Fantastic Four and the Avengers, which the X-Men have interacted several times and some of the X-Men even joined those teams. Again, this is about the list of X-Men members.TheHotwiki (talk) 03:00, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Also I will be submitting this article for peer review.TheHotwiki (talk) 03:02, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

• I don't want to get into the entire structure and basics of the Marvel Universe with you, but the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and X-Men are all their own individual trees with their own branches (IE Franchises). Take a look at the Avengers membership page (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/List_of_Avengers_members).. It's not about who interacts with who, it's about listing members and teams of the franchise. There is a little bit of cross-membership, but your rationale and subsequent wholesale edits are distasteful and quite frankly wrong.. With that in mind, I propose a separate article (or greatly expanding the footer template "Secondary Teams" section, or, even restoring the ancillary teams section.

Let's discuss how we can appropriately list the following, and please, if I've missed teams/groups, please add them here (to think listing just the main core "Official X-Men Members" is adequate, you're missing so much that comprises the entire franchise):

1. X-Men (1. Muir Island 2. Phalanx Invasion 3. Mannite Rescue 4. Genoshan Assault 5. Street Team 6. X-Force Squad 7. X-Club 8. The Lights) 2. X-Factor 3. X-Force 4. Excalibur 5. New Mutants 6. Generation X 7. New X-Men 8. Young X-Men 9. X-Corporation 10. Alpha Flight 11. Big Hero 6 12. Fallen Angels (New Mutants Splinter) 13. Cerebro's X-Men 14. Shi'Ar Imperial Guard 15. Starjammers 16. X-Corps 17. X-Statix 18. X-Terminators (X-Factor Splinter) 19. X-Treme Sanctions Executive (XSE) 20. MI:13 21. Genoshan Excalibur 22. Marauders (X-Corporation Splinter) 23. Hellions 24. Great Lakes X-Men 25. Dark X-Men

Student Teams: 1. Special Class 2. Omega Gang 3. Alpha Squadron 4. Hellions 5. Corsairs 6. Paragons 7. New Mutants 8. Chevaliers 9. Storm's Squad 10. Lower School 11. Jean Grey School 12. Charles Xavier School 13. Children of the Atom

Alternate Reality/Universe Teams (to be incorporated into "Other Versions on main wiki article): 1. Age of Apocalypse X-Men (1. X-Men 2. X-Calibre 3. Gambit and the X-Ternals 4. Generation Next 5. Weapon X 6. Factor-X) 2. Exiles 3. JLX (Amalgam) 4. Mutant X 5. Ultimate X-Men 6. Xavier's Security Enforcers (XSE/XUE) 7. X-Men 2099 8. X-Nation 2099 9. X-Patrol (Amalgam) 10. X-People (MC2) 11. Age of X 12. Age of X-Man (1. Marvelous X-Men 2. Next Gen 3. X-Tremists 4. Prisoner X 5. Apocalypse and the X-Tracts) 13. Future X-Men 14. Days of Future Past 15. House of M 16. Marvel 1602 17. Marvel/X-Men Noir 18. X-Men Forever 19. X-Men: The End 20. X-Men '92 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomahawk1221 (talk • contribs) 21:51, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Again, this is a list of X-Men members, not allies/characters/ancillary teams. Ifyou to want to mention all those, do it another article. TheHotwiki (talk) 07:07, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Also, I suggest User:Tomahawk1221 to read this, Wikipedia:Article size. Please stop being stubborn and follow Wikipedia's guidelines regarding article size. TheHotwiki (talk) 10:56, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Requesting DeadpoolRP's input here. This is a hijacking. Not going to bicker with the likes of hotwiki and that authoritative attitude. This will be a consensus as delineated by wikipedia rules..Tomahawk1221 (talk) 20:40, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

I've edited hundreds of articles, and I've included myself in many article moves, merges and deletions. I'm an experienced editor here and I know what I am talking about. You have only edited 1 article for the past several years. And again, watch your behavior. I've already warned you for your continuous personal attacks. What you are requesting to do is pile up more than a dozen of teams that aren't the actual "X-Men" in this article. Half of this article is not even about members of the X-Men because splinter teams are included in the article. Also stop Wikipedia:Meat puppetry and Wikipedia:Canvassing, I can report you for this behavior, pinging certain editors to sway this discussion into your way. Thats illegal. TheHotwiki (talk) 22:15, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

LMAO.. That's not the point.. how impossibly difficult is that to understand?! You couldn't and wouldn't discuss those massive changes in the talk page as per protocol. That's what this is about, not leveraging your 70,000 (laughable) article edits.. Go ahead and report me, this is a joke..Tomahawk1221 (talk) 14:24, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Ancillary teams aren't members of the X-Men. Sorry I don't make the rules. TheHotwiki (talk) 14:36, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Ok, then by that rationale, this article should be cut off at Multiple Man. End of discussion!! You can't arbitrarily pick and choose what stays ie: Forgetmenot and what gets omitted. Commandeering this article is the problem. I don't care what the end result of this trivial article is, this is about not letting editors assume control by virtue of "experience". The article will soon purely be your "opinion", not the will of the community. Tomahawk1221 (talk) 15:20, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

You can remove the splinter teams and I won't disagree. Anyway, like I mentioned, this is a list of X-Men members, not ancillary teams. I don't choose what stays here, I'm just following what this article is supposed to be about its a List of X-Men members.TheHotwiki (talk) 15:40, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Merging of All-New X-men??

Should we Merge the All-New X-men (Orignal X-men) with their older selves? Or write in last seen as "merged with older self"? Williamrice (talk) 07:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Time displaced X-Men

"Time Displaced X-Men" (All new X-men) (I too have the handbook so this page will reflect the authoritative source..)

• Magneto needs to be added to this list

Also, Kid Apocalypse needs to be added. He is not listed but I believe that to be an omission/typo. He is in the "New Sub-team recruits" but not listed within the sub-teams and clearly he is a part of this group in Volume 2.. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/All-New_X-Men_Vol_2_1

Please review the aforementioned New Mutants additions above. I agree with the recent omissions/additions according to the handbook so no issue from me on those. Tomahawk1221 (talk) 03:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

for Magneto, I've looked up at All New X-Men vol. 1 and couldn't see in which issue he joined in. TheHotwiki (talk) 03:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

New Mutants and other new additions

Please take a look at https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/New_Mutants#Volume_4_cast. It says "A second team comprising Armor, Boom Boom, Glob, Maxime and Manon debuted in issue #3 (December 2019)." Can we add Manon Maxime and Glob to the New Mutants roster? If not, why not? Please be specific.. What about Gateway being a part of the new X-Force lineup? I've seen earlier issues of X-Force vol. 5 where it would appear Gateway was a part of the roster.73.169.88.181 (talk) 22:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Gateway wasn't listed as part of the roster. He was listed in the list of characters appearing in the issue. If you disagree, feel free to post the specific issue number in which it was shown so I could look it up.TheHotwiki (talk) 04:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

New Mutants training squad

To the person that keeps reverting adding them, if this page is not for "X-Men trainees" then why are there numerous sections for New Mutants, Generation X, and New X-Men? They literally had two series devoted to following their adventures: New Mutants, vol. 2 (2003) and New X-Men: Academy X (2004).

New comments should be posted below the talk page. Not at the top of the talkpage. Thank you. It isn't listed, the same reason as Paragons aren't listed. There's already an Wikipedia article for student squads. Student squads are different from trainees (which is a X-Men sub team according to Swords of X handbook released in 2020) and splinter teams.TheHotwiki (talk) 08:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

List of Xavier Institute students and staffTheHotwiki (talk) 08:54, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Missing Villains

One of the first things I noticed was... where's Omega Red in all this? After noticing that, it's got me to thinking as to who else might not be there. Is there any more then?

This isn't a list for villains.TheHotwiki (talk) 13:32, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Jean Grey

As stated in Phoenix Force Handbook, Jean Grey is dead. 200.164.174.243 (talk)Rainha Branca

She was resurrected in Phoenix Resurrection.TheHotwiki (talk) 13:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

X-Force

According to this site (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/X-Force_(Strike_Team)_(Earth-616)), the current iteration of X-Force is classified as the X-Men strike team. Shall we move marvel girl, beast, black tom, kid omega, & sage to the X-Men sub-grouping? (thanks for adding Magneto and Genesis and all other handbook updates) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomahawk1221 (talk • contribs) 07:51, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Marvel Fandom isn't a reliable source, its a fansite in the first place. Please get familiarize with Wikipedia's rules regarding references.TheHotwiki (talk) 08:21, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so show me an official source for X-Force, or any of the splinter groups for that matter. I tried to be civil and collaborative, but it's clear that you can't have any other stance than absolute authority. The last official source for all teams beginning with "X" (aside from this recent X of Swords handbook, which is for official X-Men and sub-team status) was way back in 2010. (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Official_Handbook_of_the_Marvel_Universe_A-Z_Vol_1_13) So where are you getting your source other than your own opinion? IGN? Those are just solicitations/articles.. 3 of the 4 existing references are garbage and the marvel site one offers nothing but a solicitation blurb. Stop masquerading as the wikipedia police, or is this "harassment" too? You have proven that you cannot let any edits stand unless they are your own. I don't care enough to have the wikipedia authority intervene in the commandeering and hijacking of this page. Report me for wanting to have this page be collaborative.Tomahawk1221 (talk) 08:53, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Using a fandom wiki as a reference isn't allowed here. Now if you don't want this article to be questioned for inappropriate references, then I suggest you let this go. You are free to find a more reliable source. Also, prevent personal attacks. Thank you.TheHotwiki (talk) 13:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Removing references

One editor has removed references when PEER REVIEW clearly suggested to add references in this article. Recently, the editor that removed those references have also added "Fandom Wiki" as a reference in which any person can edit the site. How is it comparable to IGN, Marvel.com and Comic Book Resources? This is highly disruptive. The references were added to make the article more credible in the first place especially the article doesn't have a lot of references. TheHotwiki (talk) 23:15, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

To add more, IGN is being used as a reference in videogame and movie articles as well. Marvel.com is the OFFICIAL site of Marvel Comics. Comic Book Resources is being used to so many comic book articles like Empyre. This isn't comparable to Fandom (formerly Wikia).TheHotwiki (talk) 23:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

LMFAO.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomahawk1221 (talk • contribs) 03:49, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Other status and unofficial X-Men

For the editor, that keeps removing those two sections. I am going to say it again, this time in the talk page. The "Other status" section listed five characters that were part of the team either, as infiltrators or something else which are already noted/explained in the section. While "unofficial X-Men" are three teams that have used the name "X-Men". Its why they are mentioned here. This isn't similar to splinter teams. Excalibur, Marauders, Generation X, X-Factor didn't label themselves as the X-Men, they are technically aren't the X-Men, and this article is a list for X-Men members. And those other teams already have their own Wikipedia articles. If anyone want a list of members for those other teams,do it in their respective articles.TheHotwiki (talk) 07:15, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Tomahawk1221

@Tomahawk1221: when the article is tagged for needing more sources, you probably should also come up with a source along with your edits. Adding references is Wikipedia 101, if you know the general rules in this website. Not everybody keeps up with the comics, for you to assume that its fine not to post a reference and nobody won't revert your unreferenced edits. As for my "thirst of having control in this article", that attitude won't slide well if you are reported again to the administrators. Try being nice next time to your fellow editors like me. Thank you.TheHotwiki (talk) 07:56, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Dark X-Men (2023) & Woofer

Should we include the upcoming Dark X-Men roster in the Unofficial section? https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/107150/dark_x-men_2023_1 (Archangel - Emplate - Havok - Goblin Queen - ALbert - Zero - Azazel - Gambit) They clearly are not an official group and a sub-category of "Norman Osborn's X-Men" could be added, or a "Dark X-Men" sub-category. Additionally, can we have a discussion about "Woofer" being added to the main official X-Men member list? X-Men vol. 6 #25 Pryde says all remaining mutants are all X-Men now (because they were all wiped out). In reading the issue, it's clear that Rasputin and Ms. Marvel became official members, but Woofer seems out of context. I think we should remove Woofer from the official member list.Storm1221 (talk) 05:07, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

For the sake of completeness I think Woofer should still be included until further issues make him obsolete. If he doesn't have much of a role then he can be removed but until then I think it should be assumed that he is an official member. The Dark X-Men team fit the bill of a substitute team as much as the Secret X-Men do, so I think they should be added too. ToshiroIto7 (talk) 13:37, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I disagree in both. Woofer isn't a member. No need to mention the Dark X-Men as well.TheHotwiki (talk) 18:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to hear some reasoning on why? Woofer was directly given a task by Kate in the issue, and named as an X-Men. The whole "All mutants are now X-Men" can be discounted in most cases, but since Woofer was given a task I think that makes him an official part of the team. On the topic of Dark X-Men, the main problem is that lack of a definition of 'Subsitute team". Each team on the list is included pretty arbitrarily, what makes the Secret X-Men more official than the Dark X-Men? Both of them refer to themselves as the X-Men, and act as a team. X-force is included on the list and it doesn't even take the X-Men name - it's just a team working under the X-Men. I think the Dark X-Men absolutely apply given the other substitute teams, as well as the X-Men Green from the Unlimited Infinity Comic, and the S.W.O.R.D. X-Men Red team from volume 2. If those 3 teams don't apply then I don't see why the Secret X-Men, the New Mutant graduates or half the other teams on the list should be there. There are a few other unofficial teams that should probably be included too, even probably the Great Lakes X-Men - they're called X-Men, they act as X-Men, that sounds like it fits the bill of a substitute team. ToshiroIto7 (talk) 11:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

How about wait for one to three more comic book issues of X-Men before declaring someone is a member of the X-Men? Woofer isn't exactly that obvious/clear that he is a X-Men member, thats why two editors are against about his inclusion to the article. You can wait and see if he is really a member after more comic book issues have been released, you can include his name in the article when it occurs.TheHotwiki (talk) 15:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Formalising Substitute Teams and Other Minor Changes

There seems to be a big problem with definitions in this article and people not agreeing on them, the main problems being with honourary members, and the substitute teams. I personally think any teams that have acted on a mission, while referring to themselves as X-Men should be included. This would add X-Men Green, X-Men Red, Dark X-Men, and a number of other minor teams that appeared in just a few issues. Alternatively, another section of the page for unofficial teams could be created, although I think in that case it would be too hard to define what is unofficial and what is a substitute (in the case of the New Mutant graduates - They're obviously not an official X-Men team, they're a bunch of kids who aren't even being trained to become X-Men taking the X-Men name, but does that same thing apply to the Muir Island X-Men? It's too hard to define what makes the teams official).

For the other minor changes, I think Cyclops should definitely have his Captain Krakoa name added, as he uses that as an active member of the X-Men, despite how short a time he does it for. I also think the 'Other Status' section is a bit too vague, and could do with being split into 'Honourary Members', and 'Impersonators' since that seems to be what its used for, even if that may make it difficult to place ForgetMeNot. That could start a whole other debate on what counts as an honourary member but I don't want to start that discussion yet, I think choosing what to be included should wait until after it's formalised. (Although I will put out there that on the Woofer debate, he does seem to apply more as an honourary member). ToshiroIto7 (talk) 12:11, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey, this is a scan of the last page of the 2020 X of Swords Handbook, the most up-to-date definitive account of official members and teams that are considered "substitute". Since its publishing, there can be an open debate as to which new sub-team(s) qualifies, but pre-2020 the last official listing was in the "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z Vol 1 #13" in 2010. (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Official_Handbook_of_the_Marvel_Universe_A_to_Z_Vol_1_13)

https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/88757/x_of_swords_handbook_2020_1

Hope this might clear up at least some of it for you: https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=E111C51249D1FBAE%2120837&authkey=%21AKxGO1MBvS7pWnE&width=1988&height=3056 I think we should wait on woofer but there has been much removed recently without collaboration. Storm1221 (talk) 20:12, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for that, makes a lot of sense. Obviously this is the most definitive source we have at this point, so I think most of the page should be made inline with that. On the topic of other unofficial teams and subsequent substitute teams I'll try and write up what I think the section should look like so we can have a discourse about it before starting to rearrange stuff (It needs major revamping in general, I think everyone can agree on that). Similarly to some of the other list of team member articles I think it's worth adding and 'In Other Media' section as well (Looking back at the peer review, this was a subject of confusion). Basically I think it's worth having a look at the peer review again, and fully getting a grasp on what should and shouldn't be included, and how we can structure it to avoid confusion. ToshiroIto7 (talk) 20:37, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Restructuring

I wanted to put forth how I think we should restructure this page so we can get some collaboration and discussion on it. First, the X-Men section for the most part works. Separating by decade seems good to me. My proposals are to split 'Other Status' into two categories, 'Infiltrators' and 'Honourary Members'. There's an argument for including associates here, such as Moira, or Carol Danvers, but I personally think that's not necessary - they aren't actual members, and so will just cause unnecessary clutter.

Then the section for substitute teams needs a proper definition, which I propose as teams officially endorsed by the X-Men. For all the teams pre-2020 that comes from the X of Swords Handbook, and for everything after that we can take the teams on a case by case basis - If an X-Men leader runs them, or they're specifically endorsed by the current X-Men team.

Then after that I propose a section for the unofficial X-Men teams. I think it's important we include these teams too, since they are still X-Men teams. I don't think anything in the article contradicts including unofficial teams in, nothing says this is specifically for official teams. If someone unfamiliar to the X-Men comes to the page looking for the team they saw in a recent comic called 'Dark X-Men', I think they're going to be confused if they can't find anything about it. Any character that is considered an X-Man should be included, even if the X-Men team they're in isn't the primary 616 universe team.

After that there's potential to add a new section for alternate universe teams - specifically the major teams from universes such as Days of Future Past, rather than every single team we've briefly seen in one panel of comics. This section might be a point of contention so we could do with discussing what/whether it's necessary.

Then finally, I think we should include an 'In Other Media' section. This would cover teams from the various animated series, as well as the two movie continuities. This was a point of confusion in the peer review from a few years ago, so should probably be addressed.

Again, any discussion is appreciated so we can hopefully come to a consensus, but I personally think my plan is the most comprehensive - covering the purpose of the article while avoiding unnecessary details such as the team associates, and adjacent teams like the New Mutants. ToshiroIto7 (talk) 08:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Aren't you related to User:Tomahawk1221? Could the administrators check the IP address of these new editors? It is just seem suspicious that User:ToshiroIto7 and User:Storm1221 joined Wikipedia last month or started editing this article just last month, right after Tomahawk1221 was blocked for editing. The latter has an identical username to Tomahawk 1221.TheHotwiki (talk) 10:34, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@Storm1221: can you explain why you removed this from the talkpage? [1] I'm pinging the administrators to do a sockpuppet investigation.TheHotwiki (talk) 10:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm nothing to do with that person? I can't vouch for Storm1221, but I have no idea who that Tomahawk person is, I decided to start editing on this article after I saw that things kept on getting deleted and it seemed like a bit of a mess. Specifically, I had been on this page previously and seen the team members of X-Men: Green, but then came back a few days ago to see they'd all been deleted. I did not join Wikipedia last month, my account was created on August 20th 2021, and I only have one other account that I didn't realise existed until two days ago (One account was on my laptop and the other on my desktop, I'm not using that other account now, just this one).

Could you please add constructively to our discussion rather than calling administrators? I want to help make this article better and you haven't done anything except from shut down discussions and call for investigations into people. My suggestions are right there, waiting to be taken seriously. ToshiroIto7 (talk) 11:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

This discussion is happening simply because User:Tomahawk1221 was edit warring in this article. If you have nothing to do with that blocked editor, it shouldn't bother you, as I was merely asking you directly in this article, as the timing is suspicious to be completely honest.TheHotwiki (talk) 11:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

As for Restructuring of this article, I think the article is fine as it is. It just needs more references since it was tagged of needing more references.TheHotwiki (talk) 11:32, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The referencing is obviously a problem, but with the amount of edit warring happening over the whole time this page has existed I think restructuring is required. Specifically the peer review had problems with things not being defined, and they have continued to not be defined to this day - I don't see anything saying what a "Substitute team" is, or what "Other Status" means. This continues to result in things being added and deleted because individual people decide what they think should be included in the article. With the Dark X-Men debate, both User:Storm1221 and I agree they should be included at least somewhere in the article, whereas you do not. I think a good compromise for this is the separation of unofficial and substitute teams I detailed in the restructuring, and should avoid further edit wars and clear up misunderstandings with readers, as per suggestions in the peer review. ToshiroIto7 (talk) 11:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I've added three additional references and I will find more in the not so distant future. The article is fine as it is. All X-Men members from the comics are mentioned in the article. This is a list of X-Men members, not "different uses of the label X-Men". The substitute teams aren't even officially X-Men but its in the article, since they were credited as substitute X-Men in one of the handbooks officially released by Marvel Comics early in the 2020s. I think that should be enough. Anymore more than those is excessive.TheHotwiki (talk) 12:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it can be dismissed so easily. I for one came to the article looking for the roster of X-Men Green. They are an unofficial X-Men team, but use the X-Men names, and are thus members of the X-Men. The title of the article is 'List of X-Men members', which doesn't make a distinction between official members of the X-Men as it was created by Xavier, and other teams that have used the name X-Men, but aren't deemed as official as that one. The X of Swords Handbook doesn't even list the New Mutants Graduates as a substitute team yet that's included. I came to the article looking for a list of X-Men members of the various X-Men teams, and the whole structure of the article just confused me. As it has done many people in the past who have had different ideas of what to include and not include. I don't think you can just dismiss that outright when 1. No one agrees and we've just settled to keep it as it is because you think it's fine, 2. The article is confusing, with no proper definitions, and 3. The current state of the article is leading to constant edit wars. I think we need a consensus on how to fix the confusion, and I think my restructuring does exactly that - It leaves no room for confusion as to where things should or shouldn't be put. ToshiroIto7 (talk) 12:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Old Man Logan

Another talking point that people evidently don't agree on. Old Man Logan is a separate character from the 616 timeline Logan. They have their own separate pages Wolverine (character) and Old Man Logan, which is why I think it's necessary to keep them separated. ToshiroIto7 (talk) 12:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Just seen the changes separating them out in the issue joined - I'm happy with that as long as we keep it linked to the Old Man Logan article. ToshiroIto7 (talk) 12:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hellions?

Shouldn't the original and King Bedlam Hellions be under "Enemies"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.251.173.240 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Mirage

In point of fact, she was active as an X-Man in more than one mission. She appears on a mission in X-Men: Black Sun scouting the home of Dr. Strange in Greenwich Village for occult activity for Jean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.237.125.244 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

JSON

For anyone interested I've created a JSON representation of the data contained within this page at [[2]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randyaa (talk • contribs) 13:32, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources

@Ringardiumleviossa: If you are gonna add sources to this article. You should update the access date as well. I don't know where you copied those references but the access date written isn't 2024 except for one reference.[3] Did you access those pages in 2020? We are now in 2024. Hotwiki (talk) 05:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Also, I got no response for this. If you are copying a reference from a different Wikipedia article. How about make an extra effort and change the access date when pasting a certain copied reference, and this is me assuming you also checked if the external link is still working and not a dead link. Hotwiki (talk) 08:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Actually I was going to replace it with this reference but it got wrong. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

So, you are still not going to update the access date of the references you added today - the ones that have 2020 in their access date? Hotwiki (talk) 09:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh nevermind, I didn't notice, you removed those references right after adding them in the article. Hotwiki (talk) 09:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I will but first I am putting in the new talk/discussion proposal which I am currently typing. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 10:38, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Ringardiumleviossa

Can you please refrain making dozens of unreferenced edits without adding a reference. Also if you've been reverted, you should discusss changes in the talk page to avoid edit warring. Hotwiki (talk) 08:04, 15 February 2024 (UTC)