Talk:List of Toronto subway stations

Permission to add Finch stations/stops to list?

Construction has begun on the Maintenance and Storage Facility for the Finch West LRT line which is the first real work if you don't count digging up streets to move utilities, which has been going on for months. Does this count enough for "under construction"? [1] Infrastructure Ontario appears to count the utility relocation work as under construction, and considers this line as such counting the construction start date as the financial close date. [2]. If this is not enough evidence, what stage of construction would count as "under construction"? Mattximus (talk) 18:13, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

I would err on the side of caution and wait until they start digging up the street/building stations. Also we need to think carefully about whether the stops are notable enough to warrant their own articles. I think there's a wide contingent of transit editors who would take exception to the fact there are articles for every on-street stop for Line 5 Eglinton and I can't say I would blame them. —Joeyconnick (talk) 18:55, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I think an editor already delinked all the stops, so I agree they don’t need their own pages. Inclusion of the stops on this list is appropriate because it is absolutely under construction, and it’s sourced with references stating as much. But yeah I’m not sure stops in general are worth their own pages, but as per WP:NOTPAPER, there is no harm if some writer feels like it should be there. Mattximus (talk) 20:35, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

There's no harm IF they pass WP:GNG muster, specifically the first point ("Significant coverage") and the last ("Presumed"). We don't just make articles because we can (we are not WP:INDISCRIMINATE). I suspect most LRT stops do not rise to our notability standards in and of themselves. —Joeyconnick (talk) 02:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. Mattximus (talk) 12:59, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Streetcar connections

Thoughts on putting the actual streetcar routes that the individual subway stations connect with, rather than just the generic "TTC streetcars"? Much more information on the actual connections that are available, and the streetcar routes are unlikely to change anytime soon (unlike buses which can change routes/route numbers very easily). Turini2 (talk) 18:23, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea. It could even be done in a collapsible box if there's more than one route:

TTC streetcars  509  Harbourfront  510  Spadina

BLAIXX 19:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Ontario line

The Ontario line page lists the line under construction. There are multiple secondary sources for the groundbreaking in the West part of the line. There are also many sources for some other work being done in the middle of the line. How much evidence is needed before it's considered under construction on this page? But not on the main page? Either way it should be consistent. I won't change the totals or anything else yet in case others disagree. Mattximus (talk) 15:14, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I noticed this edit was reverted, but now User:Blaixx introduced an inconsistency. This page says it is not under construction but the main Ontario line says it is under construction. One of those two has to change for it to be consistent. Mattximus (talk) 14:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

The inconsistency was introduced by whoever edited the Ontario Line article. As per Metrolinx, major construction is not expected to begin until 2023.[3] BLAIXX 17:24, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Can I ask why "minor" construction is not considered under construction but "major" construction is? I just walked by one of the future sites of a station on this line and it was very much under construction. There is a hole where a building used to be. Why doesn't that count? Here is the same website you used saying that construction officially started March 27, 2022 [4]. Mattximus (talk) 00:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, financial close on the station contracts has not yet occurred - I think it's reasonable for the Ontario line article to state that the line is "under construction" given the preliminary work underway in some areas, however this article doesn't need to list stations until the stations themselves are actually being constructed. For example, no construction work is occurring at Osgoode or Science Centre right now - so it would be incorrect to state that they're under construction. Let's wait for contracts to be awarded before adding the station list to this article. Turini2 (talk) 09:18, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Essentially, major transit projects are less likely to be postponed or cancelled once major construction begins. The event on March 27 was basically an election campaigning tact and it's what prompted this discussion: Talk:Toronto subway#Is the Ontario Line "under construction"?. BLAIXX 00:06, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Fully agree with Blaixx here... "minor construction" is not sufficient to call a transit project "under construction". When actual shovels hit the ground at station sites, then we can list it as underway. —Joeyconnick (talk) 00:14, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Also, the list of stops should get the little 3 badge like the SRT stops, since it will assume the name once finished. AJtehbest (talk) 16:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Future of this article

In 2024 (hopefully) and beyond, the number of stations and stops is going to change dramatically. Given the edit by @Joeyconnick, I think we need to have a discussion about this article and what's included/not included now and in the future.

Their edit summary read: On-street stops are definitively NOT stations, so removing; adjusted count and descriptions to make distinctions between fully new structures and modifications to existing ones; avoided counting Science Centre as a new station twice by describing it as "existing" in the Ontario Line description (which, to be fair, it will be... once Line 5 opens.

• Does this article contain all "rapid transit" stations and stops within Toronto? I.e. including everything Line 5 and 6
• Does this article get renamed to change the word "subway", or add the word "light rail"?
• Is there a standalone article for stops instead?

Personally, I'm in favour of the current version of the article, with a future name change to make it clear it's not just the subway. Turini2 (talk) 06:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, "Toronto subway" in this context refers to the name of the system I.e. Line 6 Finch West is part of the "Toronto subway" system despite not being a subway. Likewise, Humber College station is a "Toronto subway" station even though it is not a Toronto "subway station". Get it?

The TTC does make a distinction between "stations" and "stops" which is reflected in the article titles (for example Birchmount stop). If we are to keep stops in this article, the title should probably be List of Toronto subway stations and stops. BLAIXX 15:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Blaixx re: the naming... "Toronto subway" is the system name.

Disagree pretty strongly (hence the edits) that on-street stops should be included here or considered in any way equivalent to stations and included with them in lists thereof. The fact that Line 5 on-street stops have their own articles as if they were somehow as notable as stations is a big historical mistake which we should be looking at addressing (and which we have not, thankfully, duplicated with the Line 6 stops).

Instead of what I assume Turini2 is proposing ("List of Toronto subway stops", which would also be a bit weird given we call the entire system the Toronto subway LOL), the Line 5 and Line 6 articles should have sections that list stops... and that's it. In no way is any on-street stop notable in and of itself.

The issue becomes clear when you look at the Urban rail transit in Canada article where Blaixx reverted me for "consistency": the Toronto subway has 70 stations and nearly that many again (60!) are under construction? Uh yeah... no. The issue there is not my edits... the issue there is that we are erroneously calling on-street stops "stations" in multiple articles relating to Canadian transit. I'm not entirely sure how best to define a transit "station" but, at the very least, stations are buildings with four walls, a roof, and doors. I.e. an enclosed space. Pretty sure none of the Line 5 stops have that, or the Line 6 ones. 🙂 —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

We do need to contend with the fact that transit agencies are not consistent with the definition Joey proposes - light rail systems across Canada (notably Edmonton, Calgary, and Waterloo) call their on-street, non-enclosed stops 'stations'. While the Toronto stops in question do not use the station title, are they really less notable than these other light rail stations, who generally do have articles for each? Radagast (talk) 19:31, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I stand by my reversion to Urban rail transit in Canada on the grounds of consistency. If we're not going to count on-street stops for Toronto, we shouldn't for Waterloo or Calgary either. That issue should be discussed separately on that article's Talk page. BLAIXX 19:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what the answer is - but I think it's worth discussing it.

I think that stops are notable to list on a page like this, but not notable by themselves. If they are on a rapid transit line, and on a rapid transit map - they're worth including here in a list, and I do think they should be considered as "stops and stations" under construction. Completely agree that the Line 5 on street stops aren't notable, noting however that other countries and systems ... such stations are considered to be notable.

(and yes, I get that Line 5 and 6 aren't a subway but people are gonna call it "the subway" - just like people in London are calling the Elizabeth line a tube! ) Turini2 (talk) 20:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I can think of a few light rail systems across the world that call their on-street, non-enclosed stops "stations" - Link light rail in Seattle, Valley Metro Rail in Phoenix, G:link on the Gold Coast etc. If other light rail systems in Canada call them stations, I think we should be consistent with that (in the absence of what the Metrolinx/TTC/City calls them)

"Stop" does seem to be such more commonly used in the UK, afaik Turini2 (talk) 21:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Well no... technically we should follow what sources say, so if we did that, we wouldn't be being consistent because Toronto makes the distinction and uses both "stop" and "station" whereas apparently Edmonton, Calgary, etc. think they are all "stations".

At the very least we need to change the references in Urban rail transit in Canada from "Stations" to "Stations/stops".

That still wouldn't really address the false equivalency of LRT stops and subway/metro stations (just the cost differentials alone scream out for a distinction to be made) but it would at least make it clear that no, Toronto is not expanding its transit infrastructure to the extent that "70 existing and 60 under construction" would erroneously lead us to believe it is. —Joeyconnick (talk) 00:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

It seems like the root of the problem is that the Toronto subway system will be multi-modal and none of the other systems in Canada are. I can see the argument that the TTC has created a false equivalence by giving subway and LRT equal weight on their system maps, etc but that's out of our control. Therefore I don't see a problem with Wikipedia saying that the Toronto subway system consists of subway and LRT lines and has 60 subway or LRT stations under construction. BLAIXX 03:11, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

This is good reasoning, in fact, it would be WP:OR to have a list that doesn't match with the official TTC subway system and the media who reports on it. I ride this subway daily, and the old LRT line 3 was always called part of the subway system by people on the train and the media, despite being above ground. Mattximus (talk) 00:44, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Agree with both Mattximus and BLAIXX - and yes, the article name shouldn't change.

It will be interesting to see what the media/John Doe call the Line 5 and Line 6 stations/stops - consensus may change over time! Turini2 (talk) 09:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea of removing the stops from this list. The author above is correct, line 5 and 6 are indeed part of the Toronto Subway System, despite being partially/primarily above ground, just like Line 3 was. Removing the stops will create all kinds of problems for users who see the subway map, but then wonder why some are not on this list, but on the map. Especially because for line 5 it goes (west to east) underground, stops, underground, stops. There would be weird gaps. The primary purpose of this list is a reference for the average user, so completion matters more than nit-picking definitions. We can certainly add sentences in the lead clarifying that there are stations and stops and then define them. Mattximus (talk) 01:16, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree. The title can be changed if necessary, or asterisks can be given to the stops, to differentiate them from the stations. AJtehbest (talk) 16:03, 25 January 2024 (UTC)