Talk:List of Reborn! characters

Images

Since people seem to be very adamant on adding pictures of the manga, then please use colored pictures from the manga since I'm positive they exist. Since if a colored alternative is available, WP prefers it over a black and white one. Also, mark the image with a proper fair use rationale or else Wikipedia admins will put delete tags on them. If you can't get the hang on how to, then you can list the links or post the images on my talk page and I will do so for you. Also, since someone is creating separate character articles, do not post two images for the character on "List of Reborn! characters" if they already have they're own article.

I've reverted the images to the colored alternatives for now (also, the pic of Kyoya Hibari seems to have been deleted or someone just put up a wrong link for it. Either way, that is a good reason as to why I stress the whole fair use rationale thing). I left the pic of adult Kyoya there because there currently is not a picture of the Adult version. If someone posts colored images from the manga, and it is properly cropped (400x400 px or less is proper), I will not revert it. By the way, fan colored images are not allowed on Wikipedia (just saying).

Also, images without scanlated words are preferred over ones that do contain them, since scanlations are technically considered copyright infringement, especially to licensed franchises. A raw version would definitely be preferable.

I do have many officially colored images of the characters from the manga. I can just post them... DarkAngel007 03:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Merging of certain characters

I've noticed that a separate character's article is basically being made for all the main family members, however, I'm going to have to suggest that some of these characters be merged into the "List of Reborn! characters" page once more.

Chrome Dokuro and Ryohei Sasagawa would be two of these characters that I'm going ask to be merged with the current characters' article.

Chrome Dokuro should be obvious as she barely has any information. Unless there is information on the character's creation or something around those lines, then I doubt a separate article for her would be informative. The only extensive information she has is plot information, and that would go against the whole What Wikipedia is not: PLOT. Same goes for Ryohei Sasagawa as he basically only appears every 2 to 3 volumes (as a viable plot device anyways). Either way, a separate article for both characters do not meet the criteria for Wikipedia:Notability (Wikipedia:Notability (fiction)).

Unless information besides an extensive plot summary is given, then they don't deserve their own articles. For now, I'll just post merge templates on both pages. DarkAngel007 01:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to wait a little more time before these two articals are merged with the "List of Reborn! characters" page. With the guardians gathering in the current arc there is bound to be more information comming very soon, including future pictures and back stories as to what Chrome Dokuro and Ryohei Sasagawa have been doing for the past ten years.

Some characters on the site for other such shows have small profiles that are in similar positions as these two but work out well staying the way they are. I beleive we should wait to finalize this.

Kyoya Hibari definitly has enough information to be given his own page, however I am having trouble creating one. If someone could make it that would be great.

Vongola 10th 02:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, those other characters on other shows that you talk about having their own articles, yet have very little information, should be merged to their respective character pages, if they even have one. Still, I'm just abiding by Wikipedia rules here, and trying to create articles that would get a GA rank or something. I don't simply want to create articles to appease the fans of the show, but also articles that would appease others that have yet to watch the show, so simply adding plot information wouldn't do. The articles you talk about are usually neglected and are created by those who are not familiar with WP policy, but by those who are simply fans of the series, or they're character pages that don't have a parent article (like a list of the series' characters). And, if you argue that they will eventually have more information, then shouldn't we wait till that information is out before we start creating a separate article for them. Because for now, all there is would be excessive plot information and articles should not simply contain plot information. However, I am willing to wait till this discussion is over before actually attempting a merge (just proposing it for now).

And, I've already been planning to create a Kyoya Hibari page, but I still don't have enough references and I don't plan on creating it just yet until I fix it up more. DarkAngel007 03:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I tagged those two for speedy deletion and put the information back onto the main page. I can see your argument for it and im sure that they can be created again in the next moth or two.

Vongola 10th 03:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Colored images

I'm sorry to say, but many of the colored images on this page are not original colored images. Lal Mirch and Colonello for example was part of an image colored by fanartist. I've noticed the same problems on many of the other pages. I own WSJ and I know these pages were not in colors. If you see Chinese text on them, or got them as part of Chinese scanslation it's probably colored by Chinese fans. Look for colored images from official merchandise or WSJ. Note that colored images appears in Jump every 8-9 chapters. I will start removing these images soon, since it constitutes as stealing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.237.128.138 (talk) 18:12, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

If you're referring to the adult images of Lal and Colonello, then you're free to remove then if they are fan-colored images. I was a bit skeptic of them at first since i did not see that colored image when I read the raw, but I figured I just missed it. So, if there are other fan-made images, then they should be removed.

I'm also curious as to this one here. Once again, when I read the raw, this colored image was nowhere to be seen, so I'm questioning as to whether this was an officially colored image, or if it's a fan-made one. DarkAngel ^{█▀▀007▄▄█} 07:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

New Page for Mukuro and Chrome

I'm actually quite surprised to find that Mukuro does not have his own page. He is one of the more popular main characters and there is a lot of information on him, almost, if not as much as Hibari. Writing a page about him is definitely possible. Also I want to propose merging Chrome into Mukuro's page, if or after it is made. Chrome and Mukuro cannot exist without the other and it's only fair to therefore combine them. There is also the reason that Mukuro is as much as the Mist Guardian as Chrome and so should be included in the Vongola family section too. Tsukiaya (talk) 09:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, popularity does not constitute notability, but still, I do agree that his bio has gotten rather large, despite there being no more need for additional information considering his current status. However, if a separate article for him is created, I'm afraid that his article will end up the same as the others, with IPs and new users adding excessive and unnecessary plot detail and unneeded sections such as "Relationships"; such information can be integrated into personality or story summary; other relations that cannot be integrated into those sections would most likely mean that those relations are original research or fan-based (based on opinions of a certain group familiar with the series; making it in-universe, which will make those who have yet to watch the series confused; Wikipedia is an encyclopedia after all). Also, a character article with excessive plot information infringes the series' copyright status and may be construed as a copyright violation. A separate article can be made for him, but I would suggest that no further step-by-step plot detail be added, as all the necessary plot info is already mentioned. Otherwise, the likelihood of 'someone who searches for these type of articles and adds those Afd templates' on it, challenging its notability, leading to its deletion, is more than likely.

Anyways, Mukuro would actually have more info than Hibari, since Mukuro does have background information. I constructed an early draft, in order to prevent a pre-mature creation of the article: Mukuro article (early draft). Sections that need improvement or expansion are Background, Reception, Personality, and References. I'll try to work on it after the holidays, but anyone is free to make constructive edits. Once the article seems ready to create or almost ready to create, then (I or) anyone can just create the actual article using the draft. .... But I can't exactly stop anyone from creating the article now, so if you already have an article in mind, go ahead. :)

Regarding the Mukuro and Chrome merge: well, I would have to disagree with the statement that they can't exist without the other, as it has been proven in the manga that they can. They are indeed individual characters, especially Mukuro, who is first and foremost the leader of the Kokuyo gang rather than a Guardian. Chrome was just added to the Tsuna's family section because she is introduced as the Mist guardian rather than anything else. However, I have to admit that they are both the Mist Guardian, so if a separate article is made, a section on Chrome is necessary, but not just one where Chrome's bio would go.

I'm currently also trying to rewrite the Hibari article, but I guess that'll have to wait until after the holidays. Unless someone wants to help by adding references to the current article ^_^. -- wha, that was tiring. Well, Happy Holidays to everyone! DarkAngel ^{█▀▀007▄▄█} 08:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Kokuyo to Kuroyo

Recently, I bought the eighth volume of Reborn which was released in North America. This volume is the beginning of the Kokuyo Arc. As such, the school's name is featured inside. Except, Viz Media translated it as Kuroyo. Now, should we leave everything as Kokuyo, or change everything to Viz Media's translation, Kuroyo? Myominane (talk) 19:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

It should be changed, but with a Japanese kanji and romaji version put in brackets alongside in a couple of cases for clarification/comparison.--Suki Dakara 00:42, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree.Tintor2 (talk) 01:04, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

"Da zo"

It should be explained in the article why Reborn often ends his sentences with word/phrase/sound "da zo". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.111.177 (talk) 22:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Is Viper a female?

In a colored page (I think it's from a chapter at the start of May) there are all the Arcobaleno in their adult form, and Viper/Mammon, even if the face is mostly covered, looks a lot like a girl. --Yami♦Yui (talk) 20:11, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

No. DragonZero (talk) 23:30, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

"Hurricane Bomb" Hayato

Is the nickname "Hurricane Bomb Hayato" taken from an official translation? If not, it should be removed since, as the original Japanese cited right next to it shows, his nickname is Sumokin Bomu i.e. Smokin' Bomb Hayato. "Hurricane Bomb" isn't mentioned in Gokudera's main character page. --Suki Dakara 00:35, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

No idea. It sounds like "Hurricane Bomb Hayato" is his nickname in the anime since he doesn't smoke in the anime. Better see if someone who has the Viz's volumes knows how he is called.Tintor2 (talk) 00:43, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

That seems to be it. Gokudera Hayato's nickname "Smokin' Bomb" is changed to "Hurricane Bomb" in the anime. Most likely due to the fact that they don't want to encourage kids smoking in a middle school. Also explains why his dynamite magically light up (from vongola.org.) I'll just put "Smokin' Bomb Hayato" in and add "in the anime" to "Hurricane Bomb". Suki Dakara 06:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok.Tintor2 (talk) 14:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Kyoko / Haru

I'm puzzled why these two are buried all the way down in the Other - Other subcategory (i.e. usually reserved for "the shopkeeper someone once bought flowers from"). I realize that there are a lot of people who would rather focus on the hot boy-boy action, but it shouldn't be to the complete exclusion of characters that have been in the story throughout and who were primary characters for most of the beginning sections. 76.22.25.102 (talk) 13:38, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

They lack notability, they are minor plot wise, they are like furniture. DragonZero (talk · contribs) 20:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Basically they do not belong to any group from the series. They are not from any Mafia family.Tintor2 (talk) 20:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Got it. WP:DONTLIKEIT trumps "have spent 3-10x more time interacting with the main characters than the vast majority of the characters listed above them" and "appear immediately next to the main character in the displayed montage" (DragonZero), or "have been explicitly acknowledged as important members of the team by Reborn and Bianchi" and "dressed as and were treated as Vongola family for purposes of the Choice game" (Tintor2).

Don't worry about making up new reasons, though. I know better than to try to fight an established mutual reinforcement group; it's not worth it. 76.22.25.102 (talk) 20:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Just because they were dressed as them, it does not mean they are Vongola. Saying they are members because of their outfits is original research. And please avoid bad faith.Tintor2 (talk) 21:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

You might want to look more closely at pages before you cite them.

• WP:NOR: "Wikipedia is not the place to publish [emphasis added] your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions." Setting aside the silliness of claiming that opinions on a talk page (vs. trying to insert an assertion into an article) is "original reasearch"...

Would "original research" include the opinions that "They lack notability, they are minor plot-wise, they are like furniture"? Which, incidentally, are located on the same page as (and more-or-less synonymous with) WP:IDONTLIKEIT - and that's the only assertion I've made that even so much as an essay is not being followed.

• WP:BADFAITH: "This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of contrary evidence."

Would it also include the more subtle and better-worded "Basically they do not belong to any group [emphasis added] from the series."? Let's take a closer look at that one. I don't think that even you'd question that they're part of Tsuna's nakama. They're also part of the group that kicks off the series and dominates it for a few dozen chapters. And the group that goes to the future, and... well, now I'm just beating the point into the ground. They are self-evidently members of meaningful groups from the series. A more forthright reply would have been "Basically they do not belong to any group I consider important from the series."

"They are not from any Mafia family" is predicated on the same assumption of "group I consider important" - and it's completely specious, because that's not how the page is organized anyway. If it were, L/Rambo would be near the bottom under "Bovino", and there would be a huge clot of groups jumbled together under "Vongola".

Expressing one's opinion on a talk page is not "original research". But even if it were, you can't claim that opinions you disagree with are "original research" and opinions you agree with are the converse, i.e. reliable sources. Two WP:IDONTLIKEITs don't add up to one reliable source; that's nothing more than mutually reinforcing POV preferences.

Feel free to prove me wrong by organizing the page according to your asserted standard of "who belongs to what family," or according to who gets the most dialogue, or, well - any systematic ordering instead of just stack-ranking your personal likes and dislikes. I won't be holding my breath, but I'll certainly concede it's possible.

Here's a couple of freebies: You might want to rename your first group to "Vongola Guardians", since 1) that would sidestep the embarrassing inconsistency of claiming that "family" is why you have them at the top and 2) it needs changing anyway, because that's not how protagonist and antagonist are defined. Likewise, you might want to categorize the characters by "Combatants" and "Noncombatants" to keep your favorites on top - being open about your preferences would put you on much firmer ground. Saying that "Reborn! is primarily about combat" is still theoretically open to question, but that position is a lot stronger and easier to support than "because what me and someone else like is important." 76.22.25.102 (talk) 00:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Uh huh, right. Anyways even though I hate the characthers, I don't edit this page, so what I say doesn't matter. I'm just gonna follow List of Naruto characters article since its the only featured articles of anime characters. If your really annoyed with how the characters are organized, bring the discussion to the group project page. DragonZero (talk · contribs) 01:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

DragonZero, are you normally accustomed to answering posts addressed to Tintor2 (in the first sentence, even) as if they were addressed to you? That tendency would have some rather unfortunate implications. 76.22.25.102 (talk) 15:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

You were quoting me so I merely replied. I was the first to reply, that was all. It was on my watchlist. DragonZero (talk · contribs) 19:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

By that logic, if I quote Nietzsche to make a point during the course of a memo to a coworker, does that mean I expect Nietzsche to reply on the coworker's behalf?

It stretches plausibility that you skipped over several references to Tintor2 as the addressee and concluded from one sentence fragment (out of several paragraphs) that this proves you should reply as if I were talking to you: "Uh huh, right. Anyways even though I hate the characthers, I don't edit this page, so what I say doesn't matter. I'm just gonna..."

Do I believe you're a sock of Tintor2? Not particularly. But you should be aware that if you continue to reply on others' behalf as though you're the one being addressed, you open them to unfair suspicion of exactly that. 76.22.25.102 (talk) 20:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Besides with my troll behavior and to antagonist IP addresses, I know well enough those two girls will still be in the others sections. DragonZero (talk · contribs) 20:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

As with whoever organized the section by "antagonists" and "protagonists," you display a lack of understanding as to what the word actually means. And you're REALLY opening yourself up to accusations of bad faith when you respond with "Nyahnyahbooboo you lose the way I want it is how it will stay". 76.22.25.102 (talk) 20:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Go ahead and accuse me of bad faith. I am speaking for myself and I stated my opinions. I'm gone, this is going no where. 20:34, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Moving beyond the derail - Tintor2 and whoever you may have to agree with you, it's your decision. Like I said, I have no intention of wasting the time it takes to coordinate the procedures needed to dislodge a mutual-reinforcement support group. Too much bureaucracy for my taste.

I've even made a couple of suggestions to help you keep things the way you like them (look before the derail), as long as you have a consistent set of rules for doing so instead of stack-ranking by "like" and "don't like". But if you sit back and decide you don't need to do anything, keep in mind that if even I noticed the inconsistencies in your choice of organization, someone else eventually will as well. There's no guarantee that they'll be as passive about it as me. 76.22.25.102 (talk) 20:49, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

What you are stating is pointless as neither Dragonzero nor me worked in this article to make it look like how it's now (I remember helping another user to remake this list some time ago). The reasons why Tsuna and the other vongola are in the protagonist section is based on their actions in the plot (example: Gokudera has had almost half of a volume in which he is the main characters) while Haru and Kyoko have rarely been the focus of the story (at least since the 8th volume). By the way, just because they wear the same clothes as other characters does not state they are Vongola; Bianchi also wears them but is not Vongola. Dino and Dr. Shamal helped the Vongola to improve their skills yet their are not from the family.Tintor2 (talk) 18:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

(Never addressed) Here's a couple of freebies: You might want to rename your first group to "Vongola Guardians", since 1) that would sidestep the embarrassing inconsistency of claiming that "family" is why you have them at the top and 2) it needs changing anyway, because that's not how protagonist and antagonist are defined. Likewise, you might want to categorize the characters by "Combatants" and "Noncombatants" to keep your favorites on top - being open about your preferences would put you on much firmer ground. Saying that "Reborn! is primarily about combat" is still theoretically open to question, but that position is a lot stronger and easier to support than "because what me and someone else like is important." 76.22.25.102 (talk) 17:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The list has to be ordered in an out-of-universe way rather than giving the sections miscalleanous names.Tintor2 (talk) 17:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Should Chrome have a page

It has occured to me the Chrome is still just a section while Mukuro has a page. However, Chrome has gone on to make more appearances in the manga and anime, as well as gaining her own form of character development. Likewise, she sppears splash pages and silll shots representing the mist guardian. With this in mind, should Chrome have an article of her own? (SandSan (talk) 16:52, 16 January 2010 (UTC))

She needs to pass WP:Notability to have a page.Tintor2 (talk) 21:19, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

It might be helpful to explain, using even a single instance, how WP:Notability rationalizes your inclusion and exclusion of characters you think are most important, given that it addresses verifiable evidence and the appearance of the subject in reliable sources? "Notability" and ""What I individually like and/or think is important" are not synonymous.

Does that mean your choices are inherently incorrect no matter what? Not in the slightest. But it does mean SandSan deserves a less facile explanation of your reasoning, rather than waving in the general direction of a guideline that doesn't address his/her question at all. 76.22.25.102 (talk) 17:52, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

If so be bold.Tintor2 (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Eh? I'm afraid I'm far less qualified to explain your reasoning than you are, if that's what you're suggesting. I really don't have a clue why you immediately dismissed her, given that she's a Guardian. 76.22.25.102 (talk) 17:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:Notability explains that "Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things like fame, importance, or the popularity of a topic" so the fact that she is guardian does not give her notability. For fictional characters, what they need third-party sources in which they are discussed, praised, criticized, etc. Any related award, result in a poll, or merchandising is also helpful. See for example Mukuro Rokudo's article which has a three-paragraph reception section. Tsuna's and others' articles also have reception but Ryohei does not have such information so it may end being merged.Tintor2 (talk) 18:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, that should provide helpful information to SandSan should he/she be brave enough to run the gauntlet and create a page. Formula: Find a few print reviews of Reborn! which mention her name in passing, pepper it with some blogs that make an effort to make themselves look official, load it out the wazoo with references to pages in the manga, add in a bunch of Shounen Jump polls that include her in the list, find links to sales of character CDs and other merchandise, and draw extremely far-reaching conclusions.

Learn by example, for instance taking 1) someone's blog and 2) a blurb review of the volume in which Mukuro Rokudo is introduced, take out "Who is Mukuro Rokudo, and why are he and his gang defeating Tsuna’s 'family,'" and "storyline that finds Tsuna and Co. facing off against the slippery and formidable villain, Mukuro Rokudo" and using it to conclude "Numerous anime and manga publications have commented on Mukuro's character, mostly receiving positive reviews." It's all in how you spin it. And remember - quantity counts. Actual relevance or worth as reliable sources, maybe not so much.

Before you accuse me of bad faith again, please note that this is satirical in nature. If you want to get mad at something, get mad at the examples I'm pointing out, not at me for pointing them out. 76.22.25.102 (talk) 18:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, blogs and forums are not reliable sources. Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Online reliable sources has some sites that have been approved as reliable sources.Tintor2 (talk) 19:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

That was exactly my point. I was describing the reliable sources being touted as why Mukuro Rokudo is supposedly notable (and why Chrome is supposedly not, unless someone compiles a list just like it) - not sources I think should be used. To repeat, "this is satirical in nature. If you want to get mad at something, get mad at the examples I'm pointing out, not at me for pointing them out." 76.22.25.102 (talk) 19:32, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Get mad? Why?Tintor2 (talk) 00:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

English Voices

There hasn't even been an English dub confirmed so why are people putting english voices for some of the characters — Preceding unsigned comment added by Predatorop999 (talk • contribs) 08:55, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I guess it's just joke edits or we could simply call it vandalism.Tintor2 (talk) 11:37, 9 March 2011 (UTC)