Talk:List of Perry Mason episodes

"...The Terrified Typist"

"The Case of the Terrified Typist" gets a special note beneath the list reading:

"This is one of the few cases that Perry Mason lost, or did he? After his defendant was found guilty at the trial, at the following combined sentencing hearing and motion for a new trial Mason pulls a rabbit out of his hat that clears the name of his defendant, but he doesn't exactly get the defendant off the hook, either."

The editor responsible for this seems to have combined two episodes into one despite having included a link to an online video of the one named. In "...Typist" during the trial Mason accepts Burger's assurance that evidence he wants to introduce (love letters from an illicit affair, IIRC) are connected to the defendant. Later—but still during trial per se—Mason shows that the man on trial is an imposter rather than the man they've all believed him to be, and he had nothing to do with those letters. However, he is the murderer, but between a mistrial on the admission of that actually irrelevant evidence and the fact that Perry was hired by the man's company to represent their employee, Mason avoids a conviction on his record. On the other hand, 7—4, "...The Deadly Verdict" opens with a sentencing hearing in which Mason's client (Julie Adams) is given the death penalty; something is said there about a motion for a new trial, but I don't remember exactly what. Perry lost the trial because she withheld information from him to protect someone who, it finally comes out, didn't need that protection. With all the facts now at his disposal, Mason is soon able to expose the real murderer, but not in any kind of courtroom hearing. Anybody want to dispute this (one way or another) before I drastically rewrite that note?

BTW, those three ref-cite/links no longer lead to videos of the episodes. --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:13, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

What's the correct title of an episode? TCOT Resolute Reformer? TCOT Irresolute Reformer? TCOT Irresolute Performer?

Regarding the title of the fourteenth episode of the fourth season that orginally aired on 1/14/1962, I watched the episode during a Perry Mason marathon shown on The Hallmark Movie Channel on 8/11/2012 at 11 PDT. The opening credits show the title to be "The Case of the Resolute Reformer" -- not "...Irresolute Reformer" or "Irresolute Performer."

The following resources provide the correct title:

http://www.perrymasontvshowbook.com/pmb_c903.htm

http://www.perrymasontvseries.com/wiki/index.php/EpisodePages/Show109

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050051/episodes?season=4

http://www.tv.com/shows/perry-mason/episodes/

The following resources provide the errorneous title of "Irresolute Reformer":

http://www.hollywood.com/tvepisode/The_Case_of_the_Irresolute_Reformer/6207117

http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/perry-mason-1961/episode-14-season-4/the-case-of-the-irresolute-reformer/100346

http://www.metvnetwork.com/schedule.php?date=06/29/2012

Television fan (talk) 18:19, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

What does "remove image pending deletion at Commons" mean?

What does "remove image pending deletion at Commons" mean? Television fan (talk) 20:47, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I've had to request that the file I uploaded at Wikimedia Commons be deleted, because I've verified that isn't a public domain image. It was published under copyright by the Chicago Tribune. I did upload a much smaller copy here at Wikipedia, and wrote rationale for its fair use in a limited number of articles. — WFinch (talk) 21:20, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

So the image file may be used in Perry Mason (TV series) but not here? It is the perfect image to be shown next to the TCOT Final Fade-Out episode, wherein Gardner is wearing a judge's robe in the role of the uncredited second judge, and Patrick-Jackson appears in a cameo. Spot on. Television fan (talk) 14:25, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Individual season lists of episodes

I've just reverted two major edits made to this list article today. Separate list articles were created for Season 1 and Season 2. The data from those articles—none of it reliably sourced—was imported into this article in an abbreviated form, replacing the sourced content here. The greatest change made in the individual-season lists was the addition of episode summaries; but I found that most of them were copied verbatim from the Internet Movie Database and TV.com., and removed the copyvios accordingly.

Before such a big change is made it's best to discuss it on the talk page, to get consensus. I'd love to see episode summaries added to this article, the comprehensive article, but I'm not sure of the value of breaking up the list into individual seasons. I think readers would prefer to see the basic credits, guest cast, source information and brief synopsis all on a single page. The list of Bonanza episodes (14 seasons) is on a single page; so is the list of Hill Street Blues episodes (seven seasons). — WFinch (talk) 06:37, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with individual season articles; they were even made for the list of episodes for Dragnet 1967, which only had 4 seasons. For a 9-season show, it makes sense to have separate season pages, especially if there is an excessive amount of references and links for the whole thing. As for copying story summaries from IMDB and TV.com, this is done for a lot of shows, mostly because of Wikipedia's rule against first-hand research; where else would the information come from? 69.72.27.207 (talk) 18:47, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree that there's nothing wrong with individual season episode lists. For Perry Mason, though, with guest stars recurring from season to season—like a repertory cast, really—I think people would like to see the information all in one place. There's nothing wrong with that, either.

If there are separate episode-list articles for each season, they should include the information that is already here and reliably sourced. Guest cast members have been included on this list for years—that's something that editors felt was notable, going back to 2011 or so—but for some reason that information wasn't carried over to the new separate season lists. Neither were the citations that covered the essential credits and air dates. As a result, when Season 1 and Season 2 were replaced here with the information pulled from the new separate articles, all of the citations for that information disappeared. (The separate season lists for Dragnet 1967 are unsourced, by the way.)

Regarding story summaries, the information comes from the editors themselves, summarizing the episode in their own words. It's understood that the program itself is the source, and no other source is required for plot summaries. If there's also interpretation of the program, or if real-world information is being reported, a source has to be given or it's "original research". But the episode summary can't be copied from IMDb or TV.com or anywhere else. The summaries that I removed from the separate Season 1 and Season 2 articles were direct copy-and-paste or close paraphrasing, with no attribution to the source: plagiarism. — WFinch (talk) 19:42, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Please stop adding 'victim' and 'murderer' in the episode list

Why is this necessary? Aside from the spoilers, it's an awkward and strange thing to have grafted onto the episode list. Think about why someone would want to use an episode list. Dharmabumstead (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Why is complete information not necessary? Your major objection seems to be with spoilers, and wikipolicy is clear on that issue.
If you truly find the presentation awkward, may I suggest you re-format rather than delete?
As for using an episode list, a viewer that was confused by a twisted plot or a red herring may be seeking clarification. A viewer that missed part of an episode may want more complete information.
Also, if not here, then where do you suggest this information should appear? Again, you could create a new page rather than delete useful, time-consuming material.
Please contribute rather than destroy. Zeus Maximus (talk) 04:23, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

My major objection is not necessarily the spoilers, it's that you're grafting something ugly and weird onto an otherwise well-crafted and useful episode list. That kind of information ('victim', 'accused', 'murderer'), detached from some sort of detailed plot summary that provides context, isn't included on an episode list anywhere else on Wikipedia. It doesn't make this list more useful, and in fact ruins the utility for many people who use episode lists to get air dates, titles, and cast information (that's actually what brought me to this page - I'm ripping the Perry Mason DVD box set to my Plex server and am verifying episode titles and air dates here). People who are "confused by a twisted plot or red herring" wouldn't look to an episode list for that info, because that's not what they're for - they'd look for a recap.

Regarding the spoiler thing - just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should* list them. Would you go into the Erle Stanley Gardner bibliography and list the same information for each of those books? Do you think people would find that helpful? What would be the point of that?

It's great that you've got that information, and that you're passionate about the show (I like it too!), but this isn't a fan page (a good one can be found at Perry Mason TV Series). You know what'd be really useful? Episode summaries. Dharmabumstead (talk) 04:52, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

One thing that is wholly consistent throughout the Perry Mason series is that every episode has at least one each of a Victim, an Accused, and a Murderer. That consistent fact makes VAM as relevant to the episode list, as title, director, or original air date, and probably a lot more interesting to some people.
I eagerly await your episode summaries in the article!Zeus Maximus (talk) 05:40, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

True. So what? That still doesn't make the episode list an appropriate place for that info. Dharmabumstead (talk) 05:52, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Without context -- like a plot summary with character descriptions -- it's a just a useless list of names. And since what is also wholly consistent throughout the Perry Mason series is that revealing the identities of the Murderers is the entire point of the show, listing them makes the list worse than useless. And if you don't have a reliable source for each and every one, they shouldn't be in Wikipedia at all, so it fails that test. --Calton | Talk 23:40, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

If I can throw my two cents worth in, I'd like to weigh in on the side of NOT including VAM info. To illustrate, take a show whose Wikipedia episode page actually includes this info: Columbo. It makes sense for Columbo, because with its inverted format, it makes no effort to hide the guilty party- it's shown very early in the episode, and the interest and the drama come from Columbo's tracking down of the guilty party. But Perry Mason, as with most crime/mystery shows, is a whodunit. While finding the murderer is by no means the only interesting part of the show, it is disguised by the show until the very end, making it a mystery that ought not be spoiled by a well-meaning but overly informative Wikipedia page... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.17.82.7 (talk) 03:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I made the following comment at the dispute resolution that has since been closed: I've made contributions to the List of Perry Mason episodes article, and I would prefer that the names of the victim, accused and killer not appear in the table. I think it's excessive detail for a list article, especially since no plot summaries are even present. This level of detail doesn't appear in episode lists for comparable series, such as List of Murder, She Wrote episodes and Law & Order: Criminal Intent (season 4). Two standalone articles have been created for notable individual Perry Mason episodes — "The Case of the Restless Redhead" and "The Case of Constant Doyle" — and articles like these would be far more suitable places for this information. — WFinch (talk) 02:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution Requested

Opened a dispute resolution request here: Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#List_of_Perry_Mason_episodes Dharmabumstead (talk) 21:32, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The color episode

The infobox says one episode is in color, but the article didn't say which one. But I came across that episode on MeTV tonight, and the episode list here on wikipedia does say that that indeed is the color episode. It is episode 262 (season 9, episode 21) "The Case of the Twice-Told Twist". Carlm0404 (talk) 03:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

List of Perry Mason episode murderers

Zeus Maximus (talk · contribs), who tried to add the names of victim, accused, and murderer to each entry here, and then tried to make an end-run around consensus with a separate List of Perry Mason episode murderers last year is back.

"List of Perry Mason episode murderers" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect List of Perry Mason episode murderers. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 May 28#List of Perry Mason episode murderers until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Calton | Talk 14:29, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

"List of Perry Mason episode murderers" listed at AFD

To satisfy someone's bureaucratic urges at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion, we have a new dog-and-pony Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Perry_Mason_episode_murderers. --Calton | Talk 05:52, 6 June 2021 (UTC)