Talk:List of National Socialist black metal bands

Mayhem and Marduk

Mayhem and Marduk are not NSBM bands. Varg hasn't played with Mayhem since '91, and hasn't been invited to play either. I don't know how to explain how these bands are clean, but real NSBM bands do specific things and have specific patterns in their work that these two bands lack.

There are a lot of *real* NSBM bands that are missing from this list (some of which deny being NSBM though their affiliations are quite obvious), such as Satanic Warmaster or Drudkh, though. Corrupt Cactus (talk) 02:08, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I thought I saw SW and Drudkh (and some of Saenko's other bands) on here at one point. Antiracist520 (talk) 06:55, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Bands without articles

I have included bands without articles because this particular scene is shunned by most music outlets because of the repulsiveness of what these bands perpetrate. This still is within keeping of WP:LISTPEOPLE because every entry has a citation as to why it is included.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:51, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Kroda and RAHOWA

Kroda a NSBM band ? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! give me a break! Kroda is a pagan black metal band with lyrical themes about nature, history, heathenism, patriotism. Not about the 3rd reich or politics. Don't care if the band members are shady or having a sketchy past. To be considered a truly NSBM band, the whole concept around your music should be politically charged.. like M8L8TH or Absurd for exemple.. that's clear these band are NSBM band. Totally not the case of Kroda. Another false accussation of leftist and antifa which can't separate the art from the artists.

And Rahowa.. yes! they're a white power band, but they're not a NSBM band, not even a black metal band. They are a RAC band with metal influence. plain and simple

Kroda is supported by multiple different sources, and the band has performed at explicitly white supremacist festivals. RaHoWa was usually a punk-style RAC band overall, but there was an NSBM period (which the note by the entry explains).--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:43, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

If your threshold for being NSBM is "lyrics that have to be explicitly about the 3rd reich" you're burying your head in the sand. Esoteric Nazism is a thing, and bands like White Rune are all about using that esotericism to keep themselves under a veil of plausible deniability. It's just as important if you're putting out records on No Colours or Northern Heritage and involving yourself with circles like that. Also, conflating Germany's Nazi Party with the ideology of national socialism is a whole mistake in and of itself. If the threshold for this is "must explicitly mention Hitler," then I'm not sure what we're doing here. Agreed that the band should at least be BM. Antiracist520 (talk) 06:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry but you don't know shit. Kroda is about paganism for most part, not politics. I personally know the singer and he's give a F about politics. Don't care if the play at Asgarderei with tons of sketchy bands. They're a nationalist band not a nz bands.. However, wikipedia!? lool!

I agree with User:3family6. Due to the repulsiveness of their beliefs, fascists will often claim to not be fascists etc. etc. We must trust the documentation. Also, almost every non-fascist would deny a chance to play at Asgardsrei --- that gives a pretty good indication that the artist is a fascist. Also, RaHoWa is *definitely*, without a doubt, NSBM. RaHoWa is a chant that means "racial holy war" in the white nationalist "Creativity" religion.

Corrupt Cactus (talk) 21:52, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Xenophobic Ejaculation

The man behind XE is basically a nazi (he'd probably use a different word, they always do, but he's anti-Semitic and anti-black, so i'm going to use the word nazi) but he doesn't make black metal. It's a power electronics project, which is a form of industrial. The article cited says he collaborates with black metal artists but that he's a noise musician. As far as I know this is accurate. I don't think he should be on this list, just for the sake of accuracy.

Burzum and Naer Mataron are NOT NSBM

Have you ever listened before or checked the lyrical content? Burzum is not NSBM since it doesn't promote this ideology. The Lyrics are Apolitical and mythology.We know who is the person behind it but Varg's project is not considered NSBM even in the black metal community.Naer Mataron also doesn't promote Nazism but antireligious lyrics and Paganism. Check lyrics in albums: https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Burzum/88 https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Naer_Mataron/4191

I consider Burzum NSBM though because of Varg's clearly stated intention and views. Also, the "88" in Burzum's Metal Archives URL isn't helping your case. ;)

Corrupt Cactus (talk) 21:47, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Ditto. Look at the album art for The Ways of Yore. The album art has that border that is, by my count, 80 interlocking swastikas, and the title track is a song about a "white wonderful world" "returning." Track 4 of Thulean Mysteries is named after Varg's white power newsletter... or vice versa, not sure how the timelines sync up. I don't know... seems like the standard for some people is that every album has to have a Nazi flag on the cover and sound like you're reading the campaign platform for your local neonazi would-be politician, which of course is how maybe 10% of the NS scene operates. Antiracist520 (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

New Section

To whoever keeps on removing the list section, please stop. It looks far more professional and better than the original one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.221.37.46 (talk) 12:33, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

The first problem is MOS:FLAG does not allow national flags to appear trivially as decoration. These bands don't represent their countries officially.

The second problem is that you are adding unreferenced details, for instance that the band Xenophobic Ejaculation is a "One-man project. His music is also categorized as power electronics." Says who? Binksternet (talk) 14:33, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Reliability of sources

Why has Frangar been rejected? According to Metal Archives, the source I brought you nonetheless, as far as I know, the most accurate and complete metal band archive in the whole web, their lyrics EXPLICITLY deal with Fascism, far-right politics and WWII. So, if not even MA is considered to be a reliable source for a band to be listed in this page, I would like somebody to tell me where to get a valid source. Actually, there are a few pages about Italian far-right black metal, but they are written in Italian. As far as I know, non-English material cannot be used as a source but, if needed, I may provide you accurate translations of lyrics, forums, etc. 213.45.111.70 (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Are we getting to in the weeds about bands singing about the Third Reich versus bands openly supporting national socialism and adjacent ideologies? Frangar being fascist and an RAC band pretty cleanly lines them up with the larger NSBM scene, and it's ignorant of how the scene works to say that they can't be NS because they're Italian fascists. They're very much included in the sentiment and should absolutely be listed here. Antiracist520 (talk) 06:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Graveland band

Before you remove information from this list, please provide reliable sources to verify your information and explain why you believe it should be removed. Please read WP:VERIFY and WP:ORIGINAL that explains Wikipedia's policy on getting info yourself and not providing reliable sources. Thank you. MasterMatt12 21:06, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I'll start in favor of re-adding Graveland. Everything I'm citing is from their Metallum page. They have a long history of releasing through explicitly NSBM labels, especially No Colours, but also a song called "Spear of Wotan" for a compilation by Totenkopf Propaganda. The lyrics for "White Hand's Power" are, yes, about LotR, but they sure like to focus on how the kings are white and the subservients are "degenerated by mixed blood." The lyrics to "Raise the Swords" are extremely thinly veiled rhetoric about a perceived foreign intrusion. This song is a perfect example of where paganism and Nazism overlap--this is exactly what Varg's Odalism does. It uses esoteric paganism to obfuscate the white supremacy. "Starożytna krew" gets a little more explicit and includes the lyrics "The days when ancient blood will awake in the hearts of white men and women," and goes on to talk about clearing the "darkness" (cute). There are so many examples like this that show why Graveland should absolutely be considered NS. As for the BM part, their early stuff is black metal, though they turn pagan/viking/whatever later on. If Graveland isn't NSBM by this list's standards, then once again, I don't know what the list is trying to accomplish... a reductive bulleted list of bands that explicitly bring up Hitler? Antiracist520 (talk) 06:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

As explained in List of neo-Nazi bands, scholars look at more than just lyrics. Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources say, and analyzing lyrics ourselves would be original research, as above. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 12:55, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Broad assumptions

I don’t agree with listing “Viking metal” or “folk metal” in the see also section. It’s very broad and some people will read it and assume any and all bands in that genre are all racists which isn’t the case at all. If that’s the case you probably should take the “nazi punk” category and just change it to punk 2600:6C67:207F:E6C4:68C7:18D0:8C85:F7CB (talk) 20:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

That's very fair. On it.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 23:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Deströyer 666 and extreme edge cases

I removed Deströyer 666 as they do not belong here. Let me explain my logic clearly so that my point can be understood. As I see it, this article has implicit sub-categories which are:

• 1) BM bands with explicit NS lyrics & themes (Absurd, Gestapo SS)
• 2) BM bands with tangentially/partially NS lyrics & themes (Peste Noire, Wotanorden)
• 3) BM bands w/o NS themes or lyrics, but they or the artists are deeply involved with the scene (Burzum, Grand Belial's Key)
• 4) BM bands w/o NS themes or lyrics, but are partially involved with the scene (Kroda)
• 5) BM bands w/o NS themes or lyrics, who once were considered part of the scene, or still are loosely (Graveland, Nokturnal Mortum)
• 6) BM bands w/o NS themes or lyrics, who have members that are associated with the scene (Lord Wind)
• 7) BM bands w/o NS themes or lyrics, who have members who have espoused racist/nationalistic/xenophobic views (Deströyer 666)

(Please let me know if this categorization seems complete and correct)

I have no problem at all at having the bar for this article being at the "Lord Wind" level 6 due to Rob Draken (front man of Graveland from level 5) being loosely associated with NSBM. That's a stretch, but I can understand the logic and intent or delineating bands that associate themselves with NSBM bands or members (even though level 6 is arguable whether it belongs here). Level 7 however, should not be conflated with National Socialism or the NSBM scene, as I said in my edit when I removed D666. Doing so would open the article up to innumerable bands whose members have disgusting far-right views, like Iced Earth (if they were black metal) for example because the front man is one of the insurrectionists who participated in the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, and from that you can make many assumptions etc. Let's stick to actual connections, not knee-jerk reactions of conflating xenophobia with NSBM. Unless evidence comes up that D666 is more on the level of Kroda, for example, it should definitely not be included. Awesome band, either way. \m/ Zombie Philosopher (talk) 02:54, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

It might even have been me who added it, I can't remember, but I agree, particularly for a more technical reason: The source itself doesn't describe the band as NSBM, just racist. If we had a source calling it NSBM it'd be more complicated. As is, there's no source. Thanks.

--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 11:41, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Update: Pantera should be added to the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1000:A021:E7A:69FA:7580:BE2:2CD4 (talk) 23:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)