Talk:List of Gotham (TV series) characters

Sherlocking

I am seeing a lot of characters from the series being linked to their comic book counterparts. Even if it seems obvious, we can't connect the two in the absence of reliable references that explicitly connect the two. There are examples of these, some of which were added after a lot w/out sources were removed. We are not citable as sources; our Sherlocking a connection cannot take the place of solid, secondary references. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:23, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I suggest re-reading the discussion you started on the Arrow Talk Page last year about the same issue: Talk:List of Arrow episodes#Please stop wikilinking characters in the series with those from the comic books. The consensus was linking to the "In other media" section for the respective comic counterpart. Alex|The|Whovian 03:31, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

AlexTheWhovian is right about the talk on the pages associated with Arrow. Some of the characters on this page were linked way before you started delinking some of them. --Rtkat3 (talk) 15:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian With all due respect, you are being ridiculously and unnecessarily conservative on this subject matter, and on what does and doesn't need a citation (not to mention some of these characters WERE sourced, you just went through and removed the sources). It seems obvious that (for example) Victor Zsasz is Victor Zsasz because it is obvious. There is no need for a citation to prove that Zsasz is Zsasz. I could understand the need for verification or delinking if there was a reliable that stated Zsasz (or said character) was NOT Zsasz or the character from the comics, but there has not been any sources to do so with any of the characters you delinked from their respective articles.

Removing the link that connected Jonathan Crane to Scarecrow (comics) was especially unnecessary, as his name is the same as the Scarecrow's in the comic, he has his trademark fear toxin in the show, promotional artwork for the show has him in his Scarecrow costume, his dad in the show has the same name as his dad in the comic, and the episode he was in was blatantly titled "The Scarecrow."

I would also like to point out that by simply having the same name as a character from the comics makes the character from the show at the very least a loose adaptation of the comics character and is more than enough reason to link the character to the "In other media" section of the said comics character's article. Citations and proof are needed in the cases of proving Jerome Valeska is the Joker or that Richard Sionis is Black Mask, not proving Victor Zsasz is Victor Zsasz or that Gillian B. Loeb is Gillian B. Loeb (though proof may be needed in some situations to prove that the character indeed made an appearance on the series, it is not needed to show that Loeb is Loeb).

And finally, the general consensus on this article and most comic-based adaptations has been that there isn't a need for a citation to prove that the adapted character IS the character, because that is already clear. Comic book-based TV shows don't just name most of their characters after characters from the source material by coincidence. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to link the characters of the show to the page of their comic counter-part. At the moment, you appear to be the only editor that has a problem with doing so.

A citation should needed to prove that same name characters are NOT the comics character, not vice versa. There is no sherlocking to it. Darkknight2149 (talk) 19:37, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

While I recall the discussion in Arrow, I think that the connections being made here are a good deal more tenuous here than they (for the most part) were there. And - as we all know - consensus can and does change.

In answer to Rtkat3's assertions that the links were there for a "long" time before they were removed, I think that defines any article's progression from a pile of crap to something heading towards GA and FA. Not saying this article is garbage, but if we aren't aiming to make these articles unassailable and the best they can be, we are all just wasting our times. My time is limited; I am here to make articles better. My belief is that if it is good enough to be cited by an external, uninvested, reliable source, then it deserves to be in the article. If no one outside of a few Wikipedia editors feels it important enough to include, then it doesn't belong in the article. We editors are not suitable sources.

Sure, we can argue that Zsasz is Zsasz, because hey, its an unusual name and both characters are essentially identical in portrayal. The problem I am having is that this is creeping Synthesis. For instance, removing the wikilinkage to Jonathan Crane to the comic book character reflects that the character wasn't called that and - for the entire episode in which he appeared, he wasn't the bad guy wielding the weird brain chemicals. His dad was. If anything, the Dad was the villain, and Jonathan the victim. Forget the marketing materials; if they aren't used int he episode or are not discussied in a a reliably-sourced review, they didn't happen. The litmus for inclusion is proof, not truth.

Story aside, we have not a single cited bit of evidence presented that the Jonathan Crane in the series is the same character as that from the comic books. I am not saying that it isn't a fair assumption to make; I am saying that we shouldn't be the ones making the assumption - not when there are solid reviews from reliable sources to be found out there. What's the problem with rolling up the sleeves and adding sources? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:45, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Update: apparently, DK rolled up his sleeves and found a source for Jonathan Crane. Good job. That was all I was asking for. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Sherlock update

There have been numerous discussions across several articles regarding this topic and in light of this edit (which I reverted), I'd like to take a minute to summarise, add some information and see if everyone has the same understanding of what the consensus is.

1. Why We Can't Link Richard Sionis to Black Mask (comics): Many have speculated that Richard Sionis is related to Black Mask (AKA Roman Sionis) because of their shared surname. However, Roman Sionis does not have any relatives named Richard in the comics and there have been no third party sources to confirm that there is even a connection. This primary source here confirms that there COULD be a connection, but that is all we have to go on. Hence, why we can't link Richard Sionis to Black Mask.

2. Why We Can't Link Aaron Danzing To Amygdala (comics): I traced this back to the edit that first linked the two together on Gotham (TV series), and it seems an editor mistook the character's last name for "Helzinger". However, this character is NOT Aaron Hellzinger, it's Aaron Danzing. And if that's not enough to debunk that Danzing is Amygdala, this reliable source here says that the REAL Amygdala will appear in Season 2 but has yet to be cast.

3. Why We Can't Link Jerome To Joker (comics): While reliable sources such as this one reveal that Valeska is strongly connected to the Joker's origin, there has been NO confirmation that Valeska IS the Joker.

Do I have the consensus correct, or does anyone disagree with any of this?

Tagging relevant editors that are known to edit this article regularly: @User:AlexTheWhovian @User:Jack Sebastian @User:Rtkat3

Darkknight2149 (talk) 01:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Yep, I agree that those three cannot be linked as of yet. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:13, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I concur. Alex|The|Whovian 05:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

The other two might be right. I'm just letting you know that if they plan to introduce Roman Sionis in any future episodes, perhaps there can be a mentioning of his connection with Richard Sionis. Any objections? --Rtkat3 (talk) 19:02, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree if the show specifically states that Roman Sionis is connected to Richard Sionis, or if a reliable source confirms there is a connection after Roman is introduced. Darkknight2149 (talk) 19:56, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

So Jerome is NOT the Joker...

Can we please, please, please learn an effin' lesson from this? All those people who swore on a stack of Batman comics that it was obvious that Jerome was the Joker have clearly been proven wrong, due to Jerome having come down with a sudden case of being dead. Use this as an object lesson in not sherlocking the information. We waited for references, and that proved to be the smart move here. Remember that, please. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Now that Jerome is back (Minus a bit of face skin), I will say that we still probably shouldn't name him as the Joker until it is 100% confirmed, and yes, I know that there was that joker card, that alluded to it, at this point in the show, no one is calling him the Joker, so it doesn't make sense to have that on his character summary. Mwfd2002 (talk) 05:12, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Main cast table

Can i put a table for the main cast like the tables in: - List of Legends of Tomorrow characters - List of Arrow characters - List of The Flash characters ??Phoenix (talk) 19:25, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Do we have free use images of all the main cast actors? And pardon me for saying, but that list could use a real world tune-up. Its a little too in-universe, if you know what I mean. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:01, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I dont understand what you mean with "too in-universe". Thats the point. Its 1 shared universe. The Arrowverse. Phoenix (talk) 21:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I feel it is completely necessary to include a main cast table similar to those in the Arrowverse cast articles, as it also helps include characters who may have originally been recurring or guest (see List of Arrow characters which includes John Barrowman and Echo Kellum, both initially recurring characters). In this case, Poison Ivy was a recurring character in the first two seasons, and is a main character in the third, so she can't stay under the "recurring" section for that. Kailash29792 (talk) 06:27, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree that making this article consistent with the Arrowverse character articles is probably not a bad thing. If all you are doing is converting the format from how it is to a table, I don't see what any problem could be. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:50, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Adamstom.97, Darkknight2149 and MarkoPhoenix, do you think the "main characters" table should be actor-centric or character-centric? I think it should be actor-centric, since it is the actors who have main/recurring/guest credits, not the characters. I also doubt if Clare Foley should be in the table since she was never a main cast member (although Maggie Geha has replaced her as a series regular since season 3). I wonder why "Subject 514A" isn't in the main cast table, since Mazouz is a main cast member who has never received guest credit in the series. Kailash29792 (talk) 10:41, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

This page is a list of characters, so it should be organised as such. This may be different to the series article, which has a list of cast members. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:18, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Adamstom.97. This is a character list, not a cast list. That's as far as this article is concerned, though. Gotham (TV series)#Cast and characters is the opposite; a cast list and not a character list. DarkKnight2149 21:37, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Tom Dougherty

Is there a specific reason why Tom Dougherty (Kristen Kringle's abusive ex-boyfriend) is not listed anywhere on this page? Was the actor somehow not even credited as a guest role? Mwfd2002 (talk) 20:51, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Charlie Tahan as Scarecrow not listen in the Table

Is there a reason why Charlie Tahan as Crane/Scarecrow is not listed on the table in Seasons 1 and 4 as a recurring character??Phoenix (talk) 19:21, 5 April 2018 (UTC)