Talk:List of English words of Malayalam origin

Citations needed

A number of words in this list cite no sources for verification. Furthermore, at least two of them are somewhat dubious. Orange does come ultimately from some Dravidian language, but it cannot be known whether Sanskrit borrowed the word from Malayalam or from one of several languages with cognate forms (Tamil, Telugu, etc.). The word serpent comes ultimately from Sanskrit; I have not heard any suggestion that Sanskrit borrowed the word from Malayalam. That may be the case, but the opposite might also be true. Please add reliable citations for all of the unsourced items. Cnilep (talk) 04:29, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, mahogany is "Perhaps ultimately a borrowing of Arawak maga mahogany (1528 in a Spanish text from Puerto Rico)". Cnilep (talk) 03:23, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Dravidian", "Indian", versus "Malayalam"

Some of the sources cited for this article aver that the English word in question derives from a Dravidian language, or sometimes simply an Indian language, without specifying Malayalam. Spices Board India, for example, lists cognate names for curry leaf in Malayalam, Kannada, Marathi, Tamil, and Telugu, as well as Sanskrit and Hindi (the latter two probably got it from one or more of the former, but that's not suggested in the source). It is at best an inappropriate synthesis and at worst a false statement to suggest that these sources verify English words of Malayalam origin.

As I noted in the section above, some of the words on this list cannot be reliably attributed to a Malayalam source, either because they do not come from Malayalam or because their source is not definitively known. The source cited for ginger, for example, traces the word back to Sanskrit and then speculates that the Sanskrit word "may be from an ancient Dravidian name that also produced the Malayalam name for the spice". That is a far, far cry from suggesting the English word comes from Malayalam. Cnilep (talk) 00:14, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to "Dravidian", "Indian", versus "Malayalam"

All the words which are mentioned here are best attributed to Malayalam language since the history says so.Malayalam terms for these may have originated from Sanskrit or Pro Dravidian but these words are directly derived from Malayalam and is clearly obvious.You can clearly see that all the words mentioned here are abundant in the geographical area or endemic to it.Take a look at the history of those words, you can clearly see that all or most of them were derived directly to Portuguese and then to any other European language and finally anglicized.This corresponds to the Portuguese spice trade with Malabar region of Kerala. In fact Vasco Da Gama first set his foot on Indian shores in Kerala(late 15th century) and 16th century was the time when spice trade was the strongest.You can see that the words first have their origin in 16th or 17th century which accurately corresponds to the time of this trade. You can get more information here https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Portuguese_India Amalshaji27 — Preceding undated comment added 02:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am not disagreeing with you. But, those conclusions, reasonable as they may be, do not matter in terms of Wikipedia's policies regarding verifiability and original research. Wikipedia is an open project than anyone may contribute to; neither the project nor its individual contributors can be counted on for complete reliability. Therefore it is both best practice and the accepted standard of Wikipedia policy that all information featured here needs to come from reliable sources. As I say, your conclusions seem reasonable, but they are your conclusions. Neither you, nor me, nor a host Wikipedia editors can be relied upon to expand beyond what is already published in sources with a reputation for accuracy. I am not doubting your sincerity or your expertise, but I do urge you to review Wikipedia's core content policies. Cnilep (talk) 05:05, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Failed Verification tag for Ginger?

In the book,Hendrik Adriaan Van Reed Tot Drakestein 1636-1691 and Hortus, Malabaricus[1].Cited as the source to Etymology of Ginger,It is stated that Van Reed, the author called it Inschi and later called it Amomum zingiber by Linnaeus.It is also given that in Carl Linnaeus's book Species Plantarum,There is at least 240 names of Malayalam origin and ginger is stated as one of them.[2]Amalshaji27 (talk) 02:40, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Could you clarify what section of Hendrik Adriaan Van Reed Tot Drakestein 1636-1691 and Hortus, Malabaricus you had in mind? I find a caption plus two passages that come close to the point.

"Figure 49 (opposite page). Inschi. Engraving from Hortus Malabaricus vol. 11 (1692), Tab. 12"

"Matthew praised the high quality of the roots of ginger in his chapter on Zingiber in the codex (Fig. 48), corresponding to Van Reede's Inschi HM 11:21-23:12 (Fig. 49), Amomum Zingiber L."(p. 119)

"Matthew confined himself to the native names then current as he learned to know them during his travels. His great interest in oriental languages may have contributed to his special attention to native names from Arabic, Sanskrit, Malayalam, Tamil, and Sinhala. However, the small number of Malabar plants in Viridarium Orientale cannot show decisively whether Matthew was actually master of Malayalam. Anyhow, he did have some knowledge of the language, for now and then he gave an explanation or a translation of the native name." (p. 120)

The caption says nothing about etymology. The two passages about "Matthew" (I gather, an Italian scholar who traveled in Malabar) approach what I think is your point, but neither says "the English word ginger is derived from the Malayalam word inchi," nor anything to that effect. It is not sufficient to say that a thing comes from Kerala, Malayalam is the main language of Kerala, therefore the English word for the thing probably comes from Malayalam. Such synthesis is considered original research. Cnilep (talk) 06:06, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge discussion

There are a great many words in English that come from Dravidian languages, often via Sanskrit. Frequently, however, it is impossible to say with certainty which Dravidian language is the ultimate source of a particular borrowing in English. In the past, this has led to an English word being included in more than one "List of..." article, and sometimes to controversies among individual Wikipedia editors.

Therefore, I am proposing that List of English words of Malayalam origin, List of English words of Tamil origin, and List of English words of Telugu origin be merged into a new article, List of English words of Dravidian origin. The new page could have sections listing words known to come from particular languages, where these are well-established by reliable sources. It could also have a general category for words such orange or teak that are known to come from some Dravidian language, but not which one. Cnilep (talk) 06:09, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support - especially since it is likely that some of these names came from ancient languages. Imc (talk) 18:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - botanic names should not be included unless they also function as the common English name. Otherwise they are not English, they are in botanic Latin. Their common name may be quite separate, e.g. Moringa oleifera in which the first part is latinised from moringa and the second part is all Latin; but the English name is 'drumstick tree' and owes nothing to Malayalam. Imc (talk) 18:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

support per nom. — lfdder 01:03, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
support many words are very similar in Malayalam and Tamil due to common heritage, hence finding an exact origin is difficult, often impossible.--213.47.76.227 (talk) 18:29, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - per nom. Good move. --βα£α(ᶀᶅᶖᵵᵶ)^(Support) 08:50, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
support - Terms which were earlier unlisted(orange and nelumbo)can also be listed.Since, all or most of the words are ultimately from Sanskrit.There must be stated from which language, the term evolved directly.Amalshaji27 (talk 14:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done per unanimous support. As suggested by Imc, I did not copy the botanic names or other words that are not in common use. I also did not copy some words that had 'citation needed' or other maintenance tags. Cnilep (talk) 03:33, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]