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Talk:List of American death metal bands/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Note

For my edit summaries for sections L–Z I've used List of death metal bands, L–Z not List of death metal bands, !–K. Note that both articles correspond to List of death metal bands, but so many entries could not fit on one page for technological limitations.Curb Chain (talk) 01:15, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Please do not do this kind of disruptive and pointy editing to this list in the future. For the record here, I've recently removed some of the bands from this list that didn't have (English or otherwise) Wikipedia articles and a few bands that had no references in their Wikipedia articles to any kind of death metal music. Further constructive edits are welcome to this list. Guy1890 (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Note I've made the same mistake again.Curb Chain (talk) 08:28, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Entries Are unsourced

Per WP:BURDEN, I have added sources from the artists' wiki pages to source the ones that I found to have sources. I have not included artists that have been written to be playing this genre without a source.Curb Chain (talk) 02:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Again, none of the above from Curb Chain is really true. What's been done recently, again to this article is basically a removal of all entries that were (in Curb Chain's opinion alone) "duplicated" here. Guy1890 (talk) 03:51, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
And I have reverted to an earlier version. This sort of editing requires consensus at the talk page first. I have probably removed a few editors subsequent edits since the earlier version, will take a look and incorporate what I can. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Also as a 'list' references are generally not required. As the links are to all blue-linked articles, references do not need to be copied from there. As long as they exist at that article that support the 'death metal' genre. I did a spot check of about 15 and they all appeared to have supporting statements at their articles that they are death metal, (Or have been described as such). I would also point out that self-published and primary sources are fine for a subject when they are making a statement about themselves. A primary source from band X saying 'We are death metal' is ok. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree completely on the referencing issue, and as for the "I have probably removed a few editors subsequent edits since the earlier version" issue...I'll take a look as well later today to see if anything that was overwritten (from June 11th or so) by your recent reversions/edits needs to be re-added. Thanx...I'm going to bed now... Guy1890 (talk) 08:35, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
OK, I made some more recent edits, and I think that the list is back to around-about where it was on June 11th. In the interest of being totally fair, I did add back some previous references that were added (not necessarily in good faith) earlier this week. Thanx for the help from a few other editors in expanding and improving this list. I look forward to further good faith edits to it in the future. Guy1890 (talk) 20:36, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
There is no policy or guideline that states references on lists are generally not required. Per WP:BURDEN: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material". In the spirit of improving the article references should be provided for each entry. This is not an index or outline article so where exactly do you get the idea that this page does not need references? The statement "I would also point out that self-published and primary sources are fine for a subject when they are making a statement about themselves. A primary source from band X saying 'We are death metal' is ok." (own emphasis) is simply not true per Footnote 8 of WP:SPS which states "Self-published material is characterized by the lack of independent reviewers (those without a conflict of interest) validating the reliability of contents" (own emphasis).
If you are adding bluelinks/articles simply from Category:American death metal musical groups or because the article/wiki in prose states that they play death metal, this would violate WP:NOR. Wikipedia:Academic use says Wikipedia is not a credible source. Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia#A caution before citing Wikipedia states "Wikipedia is a wiki, which means that anyone in the world can edit an article, deleting accurate information or adding false information, which the reader may not recognize." among other important points. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source states "If the information on an other Wikipedia page (which you want to cite as the source) has a primary or secondary source, you should be able to cite that primary or secondary source and eliminate the middleman (or middlepage in this case)."
For these reasons, when I went through EACH page, I verified that they either did not have a reliable source, or no source at all. For these reasons, I will remove the entries which require a RELIABLE source proving that they play death metal.Curb Chain (talk) 04:10, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
You really need to try & read some of the many links that you enjoy linking to again & again in a continuing unhelpful effort at Wikilawyering Curb Chain. You also obviously have not been editing in good faith on this list for quite a while now. Wikipedia:Academic_use and Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source aren't Wikipedia policies, and Wikipedia:BURDEN#Burden_of_evidence (that you've been citing for a while in numerous places unfortunately) states very clearly: "Whether and how quickly this should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article. Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step." and "If instead you think the material is verifiable, try to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it." You're treating lists as if they are BLP violations, which they really aren't. No one's going to get upset if one happens to temporarily mislabel a band as some version death metal. Do yourself a favor & take it down notch (or two or three). Guy1890 (talk) 05:12, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
You also dont seem to understand use of primary sources. If a band's website says 'We play death metal', absent any reliable source that says contrary, then its taken they play death metal. Primary sources are perfectly reliable references for uncontroversial statements about the primary source. Your removal of Funerus for example, when the lead at the Funerus article (and very first source!) says they play death metal. I am not sure how more clearly this can be explained to you. And that was just the FIRST one I checked. I have no wish, nor am I required to, to double-check all of your changes. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:26, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Simply because of WP:COI and because they do are not professional music journalists.Curb Chain (talk) 08:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
You dont seem to understand the policies you are quoting. So I am done with going over this with you. Primary sources are acceptable for statements about the subject. If a bands website (primary source) says they play death metal, you can say in the article they play death metal. COI is not relevant. Being a music journalist is not relevant. The only reason you would not use them as a source on *themselves* is if there is some controversy over it, or if there are reliable secondary sources saying otherwise. And *even then* you would still say that the band self-identifies as playing <genre>, however you would counter it with reliable sources who say otherwise. What is difficult about this for you to understand? Because at this point we have you, a nameless editor, saying the band is not death metal (which is actually a borderline BLP violation as its an unsourced statement about living subjects) vs the band's self-identity. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:11, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Hmm, this is acceptable reasoning, but how do you compare lists which are fully sourced such as list of death metal bands?Curb Chain (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't that be on death metal rather than here?Curb Chain (talk) 03:49, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

NOTICE

This article was created as a protest against the List of Nordic Countries death metal bands, which is just as totally unnecessary an article as this one. So, if you want to delete this page, please, delete the Nordic countries one too. --LordNecronus (talk) 22:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I may share some sympathy with your opinion, there are some policies you should read... namely WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and WP:POINT. Oh, and sourcing the thing might help :-) Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
So, do I keep this article or not? --LordNecronus (talk) 22:38, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
FYI, the above Wikipedia editor, who was apparently 16-years-old at the time of the above postings, has repudiated their above thoughts in this discussion here. Guy1890 (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to continue to remove more entries without sources after looking at the wikis' pages within the next few days.Curb Chain (talk) 01:11, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 DoneCurb Chain (talk) 07:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
The above actions by Curb Chain were considered disruptive & misleading, and they were recently reverted by a Wikipedia administrator. Curb Chain was not just removing "more entries without sources after looking at the wikis' pages", he/she/whatever was removing names from this list that he/she/whatever didn't want duplicated here, which blatantly went against the current consensus in the above-referenced AfD. Guy1890 (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
The AfD is not closed and none of the entries were sourced. Feel free to add anything within WP:BURDEN.Curb Chain (talk) 02:56, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm really at a loss to describe the above actions by Curb Chain. Does he/she/whatever really think that they can just gut an article that they obviously want deleted in the first place? Once again, literally dozens and dozens of band names have been removed from this list that are well sourced in both their own respective Wikipedia articles and (as I'm sure Curb Chain knows already) in the very two lists that they've been championing for over a week now...wow...and they actually think that they're going to get away with it. I've quite frankly never seen anything like it in my over 5 years on Wikipedia so far. Guy1890 (talk) 03:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
NOTE: There is a discussion about the recent disruptive editing of this page here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Request_for_administrative_action_again_User:Curb_Chain. I take no great pleasure at all in going to AN/I with this issue, now that the relevant, unjustified AfD has been closed. Guy1890 (talk) 02:35, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

This is another FYI...Curb Chain has been topic banned from basically doing anything with lists (including this one here) for a period of 6 months as a result of this discussion here. As a result, please don't bother responding to Curb Chain in any of the threads below this one, since Curb Chain won't be able to respond in kind.

Also, there are around 23 or so bands that were recently removed from this list here that I plan on restoring soon. To be completely fair, I'll also plan on adding a "citation needed" tag to them for at least the time being. I'll try & look for relevant citations (including ones from reliable primary sources) & add them to this list (and the band's Wikipedia pages) as I can. Guy1890 (talk) 22:52, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm finally done adding the "needed" citations to the above-mentioned bands that are on this list now. If anyone (besides obviously Curb Chain) is opposed to setting up a talk page archive for this page, please speak now, since I'll likely be setting one up in a few days if no one is opposed. Guy1890 (talk) 08:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

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