Talk:List of counties in Alabama

List of counties in Alabama is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 6, 2007	Featured list candidate	Not promoted
June 6, 2009	Featured list candidate	Promoted

Current status: Featured list

Alabama

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Lists

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License Plate Proposal

I propose the following edit to this page to indicate the two-digit code for each county in Alabama. Since it is relatively significant to the format of the page, I am posting it to talk. Should there be no comments in seven days, I will post to the main article. --EazieCheeze 21:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the license plate codes sounds good to me. I think this is another case where a numbered list would be aesthetically and informationally superior to a big honking wikitable, but that's just me. --Dystopos 00:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed. Though with no standardized format for these lists, I thought an implementation that fit best within the existing page was in order. --EazieCheeze 02:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Even though they're big, fat, and honking, sortable wikitables have obvious usefulness. The article has now been much improved, including a column for license plate prefixes. --Dystopos 23:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Change

(Obsolete proposal removed. The suggestion has been incorporated into the current article layout.)
--Dystopos 23:13, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiproject help

Some helpful information on U.S. county lists can be found at WP:COUNTYLISTS. Tompw (talk) (review) 16:21, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template

In accordance with WP:COUNTYLISTS I recommend reformatting the page with Template:County7 or a successor which accommodates Alabama's numeric codes for license plates. I have seconded someone else's request for that addition to the template and received a favorable response at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. counties/county lists. --Dystopos 22:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Figuring that if the template is updated that it will be simple to transpose, I started filling in data at User:Dystopos/Alacounty. It would appear that the information is largley redundant with List of Alabama county name etymologies, but since that's part of a series of Lists of U.S. county name etymologies I guess I'll leave it alone, even though redundancy is a incubator for error. --Dystopos 04:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've got a complete list. I guess for now I'll add it here underneath the image map. --Dystopos 04:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image map

That's a hell of a lot of work represented in the image map, but it doesn't seem to serve the same purpose as a "list of counties". Is there precedent for moving that off to "Map of counties in Alabama" or something? In my opinion it takes up more screen space than it's worth here. --Dystopos 22:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What I am seeing is a large map superimposed over the table and other maps. Anyone else having the same problem? JodyB_{yak, yak, yak} 17:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. I usually have my browser window set to 800px, which works fine, but I see the problem as soon as I stretch it wider. I don't know much about page formatting. My preference would be to move the image elsewhere (if not delete it), but I don't want to undermine all the hard work that went into creating it without a clear consensus of other editors. --Dystopos 17:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

11-Sep-2008: I have reduced the size of the map from width 350px to 310px (re-scaling click areas), as more of a balance in allowing wider text. Although it might seem logical to move the map of counties into an "Alabama maps" article, it causes a slippery slope censorship, where an article about maps can seem less "encyclopedic" with too many pictures, and then sliding down that "slope" results in the map being considered a picture problem to be handled in Wikimedia Commons, such as the Wikimedia atlas entries. I can't prove that "map haters" are a psychological fringe group in Wikipedia, but the anti-map attitudes persist. I'm trying to psycho-analyze the issue, such as noting that continual reverting of detailed/sourced text is an antic of psychopathic minds (like stomping on sand castles at the beach): rather than discuss removing text, there is a psycho gratification in stomping other people's work (daily), and that makes Wikipedia a major psycho magnet for the power to insult or anger other people (with limited restraint). That's why admins must spend so much time warning and blocking users, to keep them from irresistable stomping on other users. The removal of maps is a different issue, but might reveal similar mental aspects as well. Anyway, map size can be reduced, and then clickable areas will re-scale to the new bounds of each county. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tabular format

I think we're putting too much explanation into the "Named for" column -- especially when an article exists for a wikilink. To me, that's the purpose of having links in the first place, so you don't have to explain terms every time they're mentioned. For the ones with red links, I suspect that having a county named after you makes you notable enough for a stub article, at least. Also, my reference (Foscue-1989) says that Autauga County was named for Autauga Creek, which was in turn named for the village which went by various western spellings. I think we should stick with the reference (otherwise we might as well say that St. Clair county was named for the Saint who gave Arthur his family name. I'll change that one and leave the other points for discussion. Oh, and since the image map is at the bottom and the table includes 67 more maps, I think I'll nix the one at top, which is still interfering with the layout. --Dystopos 23:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your recent work on the article. I think you have done a really good job so far. With regards to your comments regarding the "named for" column, please have a look at the lists which have reached featured list status: List of counties in Arizona, List of counties in Connecticut, List of counties in Maryland, List of counties in Rhode Island, List of counties in Texas, List of counties in Wyoming. All use more detailed descriptions of the source of the name. I would really like to follow the precedent since it also provides a substantial benefit to the user. The user receives a lot of information from 5 to 10 words when he may not want the entire article. With regards to Autauga County, I believe a good compromise would be to list the creek as the name source but also to indicate the name source of the creek. Leeannedy 23:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it would be inconsistent to explain the derivation of Autauga Creek's name and not the derivation of the names of the various county seats, generals and politicians. Perhaps explaining the history of the creek's name in a stub article on the creek (or in the article on Autauga County, Alabama itself, would better serve the reader.--Dystopos 06:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding precedent, I have found it to be most helpful in adopting a suitable format for this article. It is unfortunate that those which have reached featured status have not benefitted from my editorial taste. However, since I do not act alone, I will not argue further against the added detail, except to say that, in principle, adding redundancy to the encyclopedia multiplies the opportunites for errors to appear and to remain uncorrected. --Dystopos 06:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have made a first pass on adding an appropriate level of detail to the "Named for" column. I have limited the information and removed the dates of tenure for officials. I think after a couple of rounds of fact checking (I will start a round now) the stability of the article can be ensured. Articles with easily verified and established facts should be much less prone to inconsistency and errors than other redundancies. Leeannedy 21:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I ultimately would like to add a few paragraphs of prose at the top of the article as a lead-in. In my opinion, it seems to soften the stark appearance of lists. This should alleviate the formatting problems with a map at the top. I would propose using the population density map. It is used for several of the featured lists, has a nice appearance, and shows county boundaries. What do you think of the location of the clickable map? Leeannedy 23:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have no strong objection to using the population density map, although I don't see how it serves as a primary illustration for a "list of counties". In fact, I don't see the need for any maps outside the table in this article, except maybe a link or thumbnail which would lead people to the clickable map on another page. --Dystopos 06:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A comment regarding origin of counties: Currently, we have a mixture of origin type. We should decide what we want to use for consistency. I have other references which we can use if the existing reference is inconsistent within its listing. The two types of origin are legal origin (which legislature, etc.) and geographic origin (from other pre-existing counties, Indian territory, etc.). We can either chose one or both but the current listings are not consistent information. Leeannedy 23:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As you wish. I used the geographic origin when it was spelled out by Foscue and the legal origin when it was not, since that was my only available reference. Since it is possible to derive the legal origin from a knowledge of the date and the history of Alabama's governing bodies, I propose that, when references are available, geographic origin be used in the table. --Dystopos 06:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have added the geographical origins that I have. I will attempt to locate the information for the other states. Leeannedy 21:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We should add the date of the population numbers. Leeannedy 23:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All population numbers are 2006 US Census estimates as given in the FIPS code links. --Dystopos 06:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

We appear to be relying on more references than are explained. --Dystopos 02:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your observation regarding references is fully correct. We must work to resolve the issue. Unfortunately, I have found several inconsistencies between references which we must clear up. I do not think that a single reference is going to work for the whole table. Perhaps, I can address the current concerns by column. Leeannedy 22:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The link to a FIPS footnote is dead since there is no corresponding footnote. Based on the List of counties in Texas article, an appropriate reference for the FIPS identification numbers is "County FIPS Code Listing for the State of Alabama - Envirofacts Multisystem - United States Environmental Protection Agency" (http://www.epa.gov/enviro/html/codes/al.html). Leeannedy 22:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It would be easier to help with the task of resolving inconsistent references if they were all noted. --Dystopos 23:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Updates

I've updated the table to Template:Countyrow, which allows us to have a column for license plate prefixes. I added some background on that subject to the article lead. I also reduced some of the extraneous detail in the "named for" column, moved the clickable image map to the main illustration (I didn't realize before that it could be resized), and renamed the table section "sortable table" rather than "alphabetical list". --Dystopos 23:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Historical maps

Foscue includes some line maps showing Alabama counties between 1820 and 1903. I think she had them drawn for the book, so they're probably copyrighted to the extent that creative effort was involved in interpreting extant historical maps and land records (but not, of course, to the extent that they merely reflect uncopyrightable facts). I'll leave that question to be sorted out by whomever may have the ambition and skill to make a graphic for us to use here --Dystopos 23:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions

At Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of counties in Alabama, User:Crzycheetah suggested the following improvements before recommending featured list status:

1. How many counties were there when Alabama became a state? It should be added in the lead.
2. The Origin and License # columns need references.
3. The counties should not be linked in the origin column, since they're already linked in the Counties column.
4. This list states that Franklin County was formed by territorial legislature in 1818 and at the same time Marion County was formed by territorial general assembly. I think you need to explain the difference between territorial legislature and territorial general assembly.
5. In the Origin column, it states both "Formed from XXX County" and "part of XXX County". Just choose one version and go with it for consistency.
6. All the names in the Named for column need dates(birth-death), plus it would be better to note that Jefferson was the 3rd U.S. President, Monroe 4th(?), Madison 5th, and so on.
7. It would be beneficial to mention where the county seats got their names from. I don't mean all county seats, just the ones that were used to name the county.
8. I think the fictional counties section is trivial and should be removed. I am not too sure of this, though.
9. The Defunct counties section would look better in a table, see List of counties in Massachusetts for an example.
10. Oh, almost forgot, is it possible to create a template for the imagemap at the top?

-- I've taken care of #2. I can tackle #1 and will try to research and write something for #3, since I'm confused about that myself. Someone else will have to look at #10, since that's well out of my expertise. --Dystopos 21:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

James Madison was the President #4, and James Monroe was President #5. In a way, it is readily remembered, since young Madison helped write the Constitution, but Monroe was too young for that. Also, Monroe served under Madison as the Sect. of State & the Sect. of War, and maybe both at the same time - during the War of 1812. Alabama had Madison County, and the town of Madison, which is in it; and Monroe County, and the town of Monroeville.

Oddly, Madison is not the county seat of Madison County, and Lowndesboro is not the county seat of Lowndes County anymore. Also, Autaugaville is not the county seat of Autauga County. There are other such oddities, but Georgia has a load of them, such as Forsyth not even being in Forsyth County.

Sourcing fictional counties

Another respondent makes this suggestion: "But I think the fictional counties are okay. We have them in List of parishes in Louisiana and I think it's just fine. However, both these section needs proper sourcing." (User:Circeus),

I would imagine that the work of fiction itself (which is referenced, though not in full bibliographic form) would suffice to back up the claim that the allusion to the named county in Alabama exists. Therefore I suppose what is being requested is a fuller discussion of the manner in which fictional Alabama counties have been utilized in fiction? I'm not sure that scholars have broached that subject. If anyone has tips on where to look, I'll do my best. --Dystopos 03:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History

The summary history of Alabama geography has been extracted from Wikipedia's History of Alabama article. I have directed the reader to there for more detail and for the relevant references. --Dystopos (talk) 22:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Retrofit topic year headers

11-Sep-2008: I have added subheaders above as "Topics from 2006" (etc.) to emphasize the dates of topics in the talk-page. Older topics might still apply, but using the year headers helps to focus on more current issues as well. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Update population to the 2008 census

The FIPS links show new population numbers of 2008. For example, Autauga County increased from 49,730 to 50,364 .--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Russell County

The article for Russell County states that it was formed from territory ceded by the Creek Indians, while the information on this page states that it was formed from Barbour, Bullock, Lee, and Macon in 1832. Yet, also according to this page, Bullock and Lee weren't formed until 1866. I don't know what the correct information is (though this site might be able to sort things out). Perhaps someone who is more familiar with Alabama counties can fix this? Reade (talk) 14:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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