Talk:List of African-American historic places

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Length

This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably. Please consider splitting content into sub-articles and using this article for a summary of the key points of the subject.

Here's my proposal. Following the lead presented by the South Carolina article on African American Historic Places, I'll pull the states with the larger number of sites (see added link to 'Main Articles') and set up similar articles for these dozen states. This will shorten the article length. If the article is still to cumbersome, I'll expand the process to other states with substantial number of sites. --Chris Light (talk) 13:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Chris Light. Thanks for responding above to the tag that someone else had added to the first draft of the article you put forward; this seems very responsible. Personally i don't think that an article has to be short, and it might be better to develop/refine this article in longish format, before splitting off state-specific shorter articles. I am not sure this is too long. There's a guideline somewhere that an article should be considered for splitting if it is over 100k, or loads slowly. Some of the sections of this article are organized by theme or period, not by geography, so they work better at the nation-level, too. There are other issues with the article, such as many links to disambiguation pages when you mean to link to specific articles. I just tried to help address that dab page linking issue somewhat, but there's more to fix. I think it might be best to refine the current article, and perhaps get other feedback, before splitting to new articles that would reflect the same problems. It's just too soon to split, IMHO. I say: keep going, and keep up the good work! :) --doncram (talk) 14:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see you split out one or more of the state lists. Seriously, please don't. There are problems with the referencing and other issues with those new lists, which just reflect and multiply the problems here. This list-article is NOT too long. It is 38,000 bytes now. If it were well over 100,000, then splitting would be justified. It is better to keep this as one article and fix the issues here, before splitting, IMO. --doncram (talk) 00:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction

This article's introduction may be too long, short or otherwise incorrect. Please help by moving some material to or from the body of the article so it presents an accurate gloss. Read the layout guide and Wikipedia's lead section guidelines for more information. Discuss this issue on the talk page.

First try to improve this was to add the 'Teaching with Historic Places' ideas from the National Park Service.--Chris Light (talk) 13:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, seems very good to discuss this issue raised by an early tag on the article. But I wouldn't sweat it too much. Often it is easier to write/edit the intro after the rest of an article is more developed. Maybe this is something you come back to. Also, by the way, you can get very good advice on introduction issues and other writing issues by submitting an article for peer review, at wp:PR, when it is developed and reasonably stable from your point of view. The wp:PR process is usually very productive and specific. It is hard, by contrast, to derive much benefit from a drive-by tag. :) --doncram (talk) 14:07, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

wikified

This article may need to be wikified to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Please help by adding relevant internal links, or by improving the article's layout.

A review of all the existing links is yet to be compelted. Many of the sites linke to missing articles. I still need to check these articles to insure that links go to the correct article name. --Chris Light (talk) 13:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One tool you can use in that process is this application of the "dab solver" to this article. It will show in red the links in the article that go to disambiguation pages. You can possibly use the tool itself to fix some of those links, or you can just fix them manually, normally, one-by-one, and use the tool as a check occasionally. Hope this might possibly be helpful, but just skip it if it seems complicated or otherwise not so helpful. --doncram (talk) 14:11, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've tried a couple of ways to reduce the dead-end links or to provide additional sources for the topic.
- I'm checking, state by state, the red-links and correcting them to use existing links in County Historic Site articles (red or blue).
- Red-links that have County Historic Site articles, I've added the link to the article.
- I'm also adding links to the towns/cities for red-links. This hopefully gets the reader to the geographic area and the local history may or may not be relevant.
Let me know if there are better ways or if any of these create confusion, rather than clarification.--Chris Light (talk) 15:13, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria for inclusion, Underground railroad

I was just wondering are there specific criteria for inclusion on this list? Does the list come from a reliable source, or might some folks claim it's OR. A specific example might be things related to the underground railroad - it seems like everybody claims their church, house, tavern, barn, etc. was on the underground railroad - do you propose a way to sort this out? That said I'll propose Ercildoun, Pennsylvania (the whole town is a Historic District) for the list. In fact I'll just add it and let you remove it if necessaary. Smallbones (talk) 04:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't need to have any OR at all attached to it. For example see NPS book which has 800 sites according to its blurb. That brings up the question of size of the article/list again. On the county lists, it seems to get fairly difficult to edit when the list gets much bigger than 100, see e.g. National Register of Historic Places listings in Chester County, Pennsylvania. Which suggests this list might be broken down into about 10 sub lists based on state/region. Smallbones (talk) 20:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The only criteria that I would request is that the structure or site be desigated as a 'National Register' (NR), National Historic Landmark (NHL), or as a National Historic Site (NHS). State equivalents would be acceptable, but most would probably already be in the system, i.e., Levi Coffin House in Indiana is a NHL. Most roadside Historic Markers (HM) would also be acceptable. There should be more than just somebodies 'idea' that this is significant. The Ercildoun, Pennsylvania is a National Historic District which is an NR designation. It should be included! My Source has been African American Historic Places; National Park Service, National Trust for Historic Preservation; 1994. --Chris Light (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

N.B. There is no such thing as a "National Historic District" as a proper noun phrase. The currently linked phrase National Historic District is under discussion to be deleted. --doncram (talk) 14:41, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Title

I don't think the title of this article quite meets the naming conventions, so I'd like to suggest a couple of alternatives.

I'm open to other suggestions as well -- thoughts? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some sources

Some big sources from the National Park Service which could be used to develop more here include:

The Civil Rights Movement in Birmingham, Alabama MPS 1(64500867, not available online, maybe it was replaced)
The Civil Rights Movement in Birmingham, Alabama MPS 2^[1]
African Americans in Los Angeles (64501036, not available online as of 12/30/2010)
African-American Resources in Delaware MPS^[2]
African-American Historic Resources of Prince George's County, Maryland^[3]
African American Historic and Architectural Resources in Lincoln, Nebraska MPS^[4]
Historic and Architectural Resources of African-American Neighborhoods in Northeastern Winston-Salem, North Carolina (ca. 1900-1948)^[5]
Historic African American Churches in Craven County MPS (North Carolina) (not available on-line)
Freedom Trail, Abolitionism, and African American Life in Central New York MPS (not available on-line in national system, available in NYS docs)^[6]
African-American Primary and Secondary School Buildings MPS (South Carolina)^[7]
Civil Rights Movement in Orangeburg County MPS (South Carolina)^[8]
Rural African-American Churches in Tennessee MPS^[9]
African American Historic Resources of Alexandria, Virginia^[10]
African-American Cemeteries in Petersburg, Virginia MPS (64501004, not available online from National Register, may be available from VA docs system)^[11]

^ Carroll Van West (April 14, 2004). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: The Civil Rights Movement in Birmingham, Alabama, 1933-1979" (PDF). National Park Service.
^ Stephen G. Del Sordo (December 1992). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African-American Resources in Delaware" (PDF). National Park Service.
^ Betty Bird (October 2003). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African-American Historic Resources of Prince George's County, Maryland" (PDF). National Park Service.
^ Kathryn E. Colwell (March 12, 1999). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African American Historic and Architectural Resources in Lincoln, Nebraska" (PDF). National Park Service.
^ Langdon Edmunds Oppermann (May 19, 1998). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: Historic and Architectural Resources of African-American Neighborhoods in Northeastern Winston-Salem, North Carolina (ca. 1900-1948)" (PDF). National Park Service.
^ Mike Sernett and Judith Wellman (May 3, 2001). "Historic Resources Associated with the Freedom Trail, Abolitionism, and African American Life in Central New York, 1820-1870". New York State Office of Parks Recreation and Historic Preservation.
^ Katherine H. Richardson (June 26, 1995). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African-American Primary and Secondary School Buildings in South Carolina, ca. 1895-1954" (PDF). National Park Service.
^ Steven A. Davis (April 7, 1995). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: Resources Associated With the Civil Rights Movement in Orangeburg County, South Carolina" (PDF). National Park Service.
^ Carroll Van West (March 1995). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: Rural African-American Churches in Tennessee, 1850-1970" (PDF). National Park Service.
^ Elizabeth Calvit, Francine Bromberg, and Barbara B. Ballentine (2001). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African American Historic Resources of Alexandria, Virginia" (PDF). National Park Service.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
^ Anna Klemm and Sarah Fick (2008). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African-American Cemeteries in Petersburg, Virginia, 1818-1942, MPD" (PDF). Virginia Department of Historic Resources.

These are all of the MPS/MRA studies published by the National Park Service that have "African-American" or "Civil Rights" in their titles, with inline references ready to use. Many individual buildings or other places covered within each of these studies were individually listed on the National Register. For each there will be an individual NRHP nomination document available. See wp:NRHPhelp for tips on getting these.

I promised to provide some information here in another discussion (at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/African Americans in Davenport, Iowa (2nd nomination)). --Doncram (talk) 03:23, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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[mpsCivBirm2-1] Carroll Van West (April 14, 2004). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: The Civil Rights Movement in Birmingham, Alabama, 1933-1979" (PDF). National Park Service.

[mpsAfrDel-2] Stephen G. Del Sordo (December 1992). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African-American Resources in Delaware" (PDF). National Park Service.

[mpsAfrPG-3] Betty Bird (October 2003). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African-American Historic Resources of Prince George's County, Maryland" (PDF). National Park Service.

[mpsAfrLincoln-4] Kathryn E. Colwell (March 12, 1999). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African American Historic and Architectural Resources in Lincoln, Nebraska" (PDF). National Park Service.

[mpsAfrWS-5] Langdon Edmunds Oppermann (May 19, 1998). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: Historic and Architectural Resources of African-American Neighborhoods in Northeastern Winston-Salem, North Carolina (ca. 1900-1948)" (PDF). National Park Service.

[mpsFreedomTrailNY-6] Mike Sernett and Judith Wellman (May 3, 2001). "Historic Resources Associated with the Freedom Trail, Abolitionism, and African American Life in Central New York, 1820-1870". New York State Office of Parks Recreation and Historic Preservation.

[mpsAfrAmSchoolsSC-7] Katherine H. Richardson (June 26, 1995). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African-American Primary and Secondary School Buildings in South Carolina, ca. 1895-1954" (PDF). National Park Service.

[mpsCivilOrangeburgSC-8] Steven A. Davis (April 7, 1995). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: Resources Associated With the Civil Rights Movement in Orangeburg County, South Carolina" (PDF). National Park Service.

[mpsAfrChurchesTN-9] Carroll Van West (March 1995). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: Rural African-American Churches in Tennessee, 1850-1970" (PDF). National Park Service.

[mpsAfrAlexandriaVA-10] Elizabeth Calvit, Francine Bromberg, and Barbara B. Ballentine (2001). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African American Historic Resources of Alexandria, Virginia" (PDF). National Park Service.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[mpsAfrPetersburgVA-11] Anna Klemm and Sarah Fick (2008). "National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Documentation: African-American Cemeteries in Petersburg, Virginia, 1818-1942, MPD" (PDF). Virginia Department of Historic Resources.

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