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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

RFC about the Riley Gaines accusations

At this time, there is consensus to not include the allegations made by Gaines. However, a number of editors have said that they would like to see specific wording that they can review, and that the vagueness of the question is a key part of their opposition. I do not believe that it would be disruptive if someone opened a new RfC with an actual proposal on what to include in the article. The WordsmithTalk to me 21:58, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.



Should the Riley Gaines accusations be included in the article?— Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Non nobis solum. 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Note: This RFC concerns the inclusion of the accusations. If and only if there is consensus to include the accusations, the exact wording will be determined during a second RFC. Editors should use this RFC to discuss the strength of sources that mention the accusation as well as policy-based reasons to include or not include said accusations.

Survey (Riley Gaines)

  • No. I'd support something along the lines of "Some of Thomas' former teammates and opponents have expressed concern to media outlets at having to share locker rooms with her." This is aligned with how the best sources available are covering this aspect of Thomas' career. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC) partial striking per Beccaynr 15:04, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
    No (and comment) I concur and if this is added, it should also mention that “though some teammates were in support.” -TenorTwelve (talk) 23:48, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Depends - I would support a mention of the concerns as existing, but absolutely would not support any mention of the nature of the concerns wrt Thomas' gender transition status (e.g. her genitals). — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 17:32, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No, by default as no proposed wording has been offered. Reserving the right to reconsider if an acceptable proposed wording is offered with valid sources to support it. My thinking on this pretty much follows that of Firefangledfeathers and Shibbolethink above. In particular, any mention of genitals in this context is completely unacceptable. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:56, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment: Just wanted to chime in here and add that this RfC is only to determine IF there is consensus to include the accusation. Only if this were to pass would there then be a second RfC to determine specific wording. Patr2016 (talk) 22:31, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
    That's right, but I don't see this as a good approach. It is overcomplicated and it makes this first round feel like writing a blank cheque. We have no way of knowing what will be offered in the second RfC. It might be that all suggestions offered are unacceptable. If we were going to have two rounds then it should be the other way round; Pick the best wording first and then decide whether that is better or worse than omitting it entirely. That said, I think we already have the best wording from the discussions above and that is what Firefangledfeathers suggested a while ago. If that was what we were having an RfC on then I'd be weakly in favour. As it stands, my !vote remains a firm no. DanielRigal (talk) 23:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No - Based on the available sources, (i.e. tabloids, questionable at best, and The Patriot-News), only Gaines appears to allege 'opponents have expressed concern'; there appears to be no support for "opponents have expressed concern to media outlets". As noted below, 2022 sources about some anonymous teammates have been discussed, but do not support inclusion of 2023 allegations by Gaines about Thomas nor alleged concerns by opponents. The WP:BLP privacy and harm considerations are significant, and per WP:NOTSCANDAL, the available sources do not appear to meet the required especially high standard. It also does not seem workable to try to obscure the WP:BLP issues by describing Gaines' allegations as "concerns", whether attributed to "opponent" or "opponents", and then include headlines in the article reference list that include mention of Thomas' genitalia. Beccaynr (talk) 18:28, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No with same reasoning and caveat as DanielRigal offered above. Funcrunch (talk) 18:32, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No, with the same reasoning as others. The only places I found this even covered was on Fox News, NY Post, Washington Examiner, Daily Mail, Campus Reform, Daily Wire, and TMZ, none of which are reputable. Even a Toronto Sun story, along with those in ESPN only mentions that Gaines is angry at Lia Thomas because she is a trans woman, but nothing about any accusations. So, including this information in the article would not be workable or good.Historyday01 (talk) 22:11, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No. As far as I can tell, using WP:RS the only thing we could say neutrally is some variation on "in an interview, Gaines said that (claim here)". That would be both truthfully stated and correctly attributed, but it's an obvious violation of WP:BLPCRIME/WP:BLPPUBLIC. This would have to be a much bigger scandal, an active court case being covered by multiple WP:RS, etc, before we could even seriously consider it. There are six entire paragraphs already in the article under "public debate"; it's not like the article is unclear about Thomas being a controversial figure. -- asilvering (talk) 22:49, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    I agree @Asilvering It has been adequately covered already in the article under "public debate". Pickalittletalkalittle (talk) 21:49, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No. Honestly just jumping on the bandwagon at this point, but my reasoning hews closer to Historyday01's than DanielRigal's here. With the current sourcing it's hard for me to say that any wording would be acceptable. Loki (talk) 05:58, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No since better and more sustained coverage would be necessary first. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:21, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No per everyone above. Vaguely gesturing towards nonspecific "concerns at having to share locker rooms with her" isn't much better; that's saying the same thing but with innuendo. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 15:15, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No. Beccaynr and Maddy from Celeste's rationales in particular resonate with me. I stand by my earlier comments as well (1, 2). Recirculating unverifiable gossip violates both the letter and spirit of BLP and brings the project into disrepute. — SamX [talk · contribs · he/him] 01:19, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Yes. The New York Post is a tabloid-format newspaper, but it is a real newspaper which does real journalism and is not comparable to the Weekly World News. It is worrying that the discussion here appears to be about how to leave readers un- or misinformed.Eladynnus (talk) 16:28, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
    Comment - at WP:RSP, the WP:NYPOST entry includes, A tabloid newspaper, editors criticise its lack of concern for fact-checking or corrections, including a number of examples of outright fabrication. Beccaynr (talk) 16:46, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
It is my reading of that entry that the Post is mainly unreliable for articles related to articles specific to New York City and the NYPD and because of a perceived reluctance to issue corrections, but their articles can be used supplementally in some circumstances. Eladynnus (talk) 17:14, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
I would parse WP:NYPOST as stating that the source is generally unreliable for factual reporting in all areas, and especially unreliable with regards to politics and New York politics. The August 2020 RfC has many editors pointing out their unreliability for factual reporting on non-New York topics. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:19, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (Riley Gaines)

IMO, this an RfC for establishing whether or not wikipedia should publish a tabloid-style, libelous, transphobic rumor. So it could go really go either way /s. In seriousness, this is an intentionally inflammatory accusation, reported by organizations with either malice (fox) or incompetence (local news totally unfamiliar with the topic area, repeating the former's reporting). 🙢 - Sativa Inflorescence - 🙢 11:36, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

@Sativa Inflorescence, you are reading a lot into the above RfC proposal. Ixtal has not described whether any mention of "genitals" would be included, whether any mention of "inflammatory accusations" would be included, etc. Just the mere fact that accusations were made. A second discussion would cover what form that mention would take. Please don't jump to these conclusions and assume bad faith in Ixtal's proposal like this. Thanks — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 16:09, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
I meant to point to the absurdity of the need for an RfC to settle this question. I stand by my harsh criticism of both the accusations and the coverage. The RfC itself is an appropriate response to an unfortunate situation. 🙢 - Sativa Inflorescence - 🙢 23:32, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course it should be included. It garnered significant media coverage, and is one of many concerns about pre-op trans-athletes (or pre-op trans women in general) sharing these spaces. This hardly rises to the level of libel (which is a pretty hyperbolic claim to leave in print here), and is certainly not transphobic. It is, however, a meaningful part of the record of public discourse around Thomas's participation in women's sport. 162.203.147.11 (talk) 13:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

  • These reprints of the Gaines allegations made to Fox News and TMZ related to Thomas's body as well as her conduct seem to make it clear that Gaines is 1) also engaged in related political advocacy, 2) making allegations of criminal conduct against Thomas, 3) and allegations about her teammates as witnesses. WP:BLP, WP:BLPBALANCE, WP:BLPCRIME, and WP:NOTSCANDAL seem to be relevant policies to consider. Beccaynr (talk) 14:56, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    Simply being engaged in political advocacy is not grounds for ignoring someone's statement or actions. Or, if it were, we would be deleting quite a few articles about quite a few politicians. As to your second point, where does Gaines allege criminal conduct? I don't agree with Gaines' position at all, I don't find her words particularly palatable and disagree with basically everything she said. But I don't recall her making any criminal allegations whatsoever. Please back that up with a direct quote, thanks. If I'm wrong, I absolutely cede that point and we would want to avoid inclusion. But if there aren't any criminal allegations, that's a pretty big hole in this argument. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 16:11, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    The political advocacy reported along with the allegations seems relevant, including when considering sources as well as WP:BLPBALANCE; this aspect is not offered as a sole basis for exclusion of the contentious statements. As to allegations of criminal conduct, there are sources, e.g. The National Desk reprinted by ABC7/KATV recycling the Fox News interview quote from Gaines: "Not even probably a year, two years ago, this would have been considered some form of sexual assault, voyeurism", which appears to be Gaines alleging criminal conduct - the caveat at the beginning of the quote, which alleges the criminal conduct Gaines alleges is no longer subject to prosecution, does not appear to help avoid WP:BLPCRIME specifically and WP:BLP generally. Beccaynr (talk) 16:35, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    It's clearly not, and to be frank: you're reaching for a content decision here which would essentially be OR.
    Most English speakers would understand Gaines's statement to be remarking on the speed with which what is "acceptable" has changed without stopping to consider the real world ramifications of what we are asking women like her and her teammates to endure. 162.203.147.11 (talk) 16:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    In that quote, Gaines is observing that others would have considered something to be a problem, but that now it is not. That is not an accusation or allegation of a crime. It is so blatantly not an allegation of a crime that it boggles the mind and (while not quite reaching) gets close to WP:IDHT.
    I could, similarly, say: Wow, Elon Musk smoked a lot of weed on Joe Rogan's podcast. Just a few years ago, that would have been a felony. I'm not alleging Elon Musk committed a crime. I'm pointing out that time flows forwards and things change. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 16:50, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    The Patriot-News (aka pennlive) source presents the criminal conduct quote in the context of Gaines' "locker room allegation". From my view, Gaines makes allegations about Thomas' body and conduct, and Gaines states that she considers the alleged conduct to be criminal conduct, but also does not believe the alleged conduct is subject to prosecution. It seems quite contentious to allege that someone has engaged in conduct that could be considered sexual assault or voyeurism, particularly in the politicized context in which Gaines is making these statements. Beccaynr (talk) 16:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    You provided the relevant quote, and the replies directly above you (including mine) assert quite clearly why what you shared isn't someone making an accusation of criminal conduct. It is Gaines expressing her discomfort with the speed at which these changes happened and the fact that they apparently occurred with the blessing of an institution not at all concerned for her (or her teammates') well-being. I would agree with the notion that continuing to bring this up as a violation of BLP is venturing quite firmly into IDHT territory. 162.203.147.11 (talk) 17:08, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    From my view, responding to a request for a quote with a source, and responding to a concern about OR with another source in a discussion amongst three participants including myself about one aspect of potentially-applicable WP:BLP policy is not 'venturing quite firmly into IDHT territory' (e.g. "perpetuate disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has decided that moving on to other topics would be more productive"). Other editors can also review the sources and relevant policies. Beccaynr (talk) 17:20, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Another previous article Talk discussion includes Talk:Lia Thomas#Are any of these sources reliable re: locker room controversy?, listing four sources from 2022 that do not mention the 2023 Gaines allegations (concerns and/or allegations are attributed to some of Thomas' anonymous teammates, which seems to raise WP:BLPGOSSIP issues) and listing one 2023 source from The National Desk reprinted at KATV/ABC7 (owned by the Sinclair Broadcast Group) that was later discussed at the RSN discussion noted above. Beccaynr (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    I would note that the discussion in that section certainly doesn't rise to the level that would be needed to deprecate any of the sources listed above. We can also add Sports Illustrated, the Washington Examiner, and the Daily Mail as well as a handful of other sites where this issue was brought up and documented as part of the public discourse. 162.203.147.11 (talk) 16:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
  • I don't feel comfortable !voting on this without a proposed wording as it feels like writing a blank cheque. There are wordings that I might be prepared to very tentatively support but I can't be sure if that is where this is going. I guess my only option is to oppose by default and reserve the right to change my mind if a valid proposal is made later. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:50, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
  • RfCs are to get uninvolved voices, but this makes no effort to explain what it's even about. A good RfC doesn't require the uninvolved to start googling or digging through past discussions. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:07, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
    Yeah I'm not entirely sure what accusations these refer to. Is it that she used the woman's restroom/changing room? That she transitioned? Linking to past discussions is fine, just make sure it's not solely for understanding the intentions, but prior consensus. SWinxy (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

List of Sources

Please add sources to the list here, using the following format

  1. Example source: link to example source article Date

— Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Non nobis solum. 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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