Talk:Leskovik

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Pov & or edits

The recent additions are either based on pov sources or the correspodent citation do not included the described events at all:

The claimed burning of the town is supported by the memoirs of a Dutch officer in service of the Albanian gendarmerie, as well as the partisan from Edwin Jacques. It easily understood that both of them aren't even close to what's described as wp:rs.
The supposed events of the Greek Civil War, that a Greek invasion of 70,000 men occurred in Albania, isn't supported by the sources given: Charles R. Shrader (December 30, 1999). The Withered Vine: Logistics and the Communist Insurgency in Greece, 1945-1949. Praeger. p. 187., even this [[1]]. Off course articles newspapers aren't preferred per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history).Alexikoua (talk) 21:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By the way the sources of the 1949 border events do not even mention Leskovik. In general some sporadic border incidents, due to Albanian support of communist guerillas (irrelevant to this town), can't be called large-scale war (70,000 troops? please Mondi check your sources and Pearson is widely rejected as wp:rs, not to mention he also did not decribe such extraordinary events).Alexikoua (talk) 16:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the only source that claims these events happened is: http://zeriikosoves.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3799:zbulohet-deklarata-e-oficerit-rob-te-49-es-manol-trulino&catid=27:dossier&. I wonder what makes this wp:or in such a topic.Alexikoua (talk) 18:41, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You cannot remove the section because you don't agree on the number of troops. And I don't care of the number of troops, if you have other numbers show the sources. I will read them. The conflict is real, there are people decorated as People's Hero that fell in the border. There are Greek communist families that were settled and didn't want to move to Romania as well. It is part of a broader article which is missing, and I don't have time now to go through all, I restrained only to southeastern part of the border.Mondiad (talk) 12:45, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the first item, even this is part of a much broader article with many sources, I only listed the references that mentioned events in Leskovik, and published outside Albania. I.e. studies from the Academy of Sciences in Albania are not included, though I see that Greece-related articles are full of Greek-only sources. So, without jumping broadly, you cannot state Dutch and British officers who served in the area as not reliable just because you don't like them, and also Elsie, Durham etc. I agree on any attempt to rephrase the sentences in order to remove any emotional content, and to make the article more pure "journalistic" but that period for Leskovik is one the most difficult and must be included.
Mondiad (talk) 12:46, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point that this time periods should be filled with necessary info. I actually made correct use of one of the books you provided, which offer interesting info about the involvement of Leskovik to the Greek Civil War. Generally speaking, I find a number of Albanian authors quite helpful and I've used them as references in various articles. For example the works of S.Skendi (Albanian national awakening) and Evis Caja, which are both of academic value.

Talking about academic values, can you explain me where is the academic value in the map that Megistias has created, where he points all Epirote and some Illyrian towns (Dimal, Kodrion, Lychnida) as Greek (in black) the same way as Greek colonies (in black as well) along the seashore? Why do you avoid Strabo's History?

How can the report of Harry Lamb, British delegate on the International Control Commission, to Sir Edward Grey, British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, of General De Weer reports, all published by Robert Elsie, be non-neutral while Megistias map shows up in every second page in Albania' related articles?

Why don't you go and add the Albanian version of the name for Konitsa, Paramithia, Arta, Florina etc, since Argirokastro, Permet, Tepelena, or Korca have tghe Greek versions of the name. Then I will get a signal that you are really neutral.
Mondiad (talk) 12:46, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Very useful guidelines in deciding which source is suitable, are found in Wikipedia:HISTRS. As for the use of personal accounts, primary sources, who are obviously biased, this doesn't promote the neutrality of an article and should be better avoided.Alexikoua (talk) 21:06, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say that Lamb and Grey are non-neutral, indeed they are probably neutral. But officers that participated in the conflicts and lead the armed forces of the one side, aren't neutral in terms of war reports.

British and Greeks were allies since ever. I don't see why British or Dutch officers should keep and an anti-Greek position in any part of their reports, especially when reporting to the British prime minister, Sir Grey. Mondiad (talk) 12:43, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Moreover, things do not seem to be as you claim: there is an Albanian alternative in Paramythia, while in Tepelene there is not a Greek one. At least in this encyclopedia. Alexikoua (talk) 11:39, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Demographics of older administrative units

I have the feeling that demographic figures of Ottoman era administrative units are not helpful in article such as this one, a great part of the Kaza of Leskovik included an area which today belongs to another (Permet) municipality, as such it offers the wrong impression that the specific data are representative for the modern municipal unit. This applies to articles such as Filiates (Kaza figures include part of Konispol, Markat) etc.Alexikoua (talk) 14:33, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The statistics given are not Ottoman but from the Greek Pan-Epirotic Union of Northern Epirus. Psomas cites them. Actually we don't have anything Ottoman here for that perspective via RS.Resnjari (talk) 02:52, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It had a chunk of Çarçove east of the river, plus a bigger chunk of what is now Greece, most of this latter chunk being Greek inhabited and including Konitza. But I agree with removing them, this is about the town.--Calthinus (talk) 04:34, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you guys think they ought to go, ok fine.Resnjari (talk) 05:04, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative names

The town's Greek community comprises 10%+ in the latest published official census, does this warrant a Greek name on lead based on this rationale [[2]] @AlexBachmann:?

I also couldn't find a claim about Leskovik on this paper which includes a partial (not fully) list of minority settlements [[3]].Alexikoua (talk) 04:52, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are not going to use census data for such things, after criticizing the census data as unreliable for 10 years. Many people were offered money and documents to declare themselves "Greek" - that does not mean they indeed feel Greek. I guess in Leskovik it was mainly Aromanians who did that. Academic studies do not show any Greek presence in Leskovik (at the very least not any meaningful one). The 2014 document which has been used by you on several articles is a full list of settlements with Greeks, not a "partial" one. It does not mention Leskovik. Not to mention that Leskovik has some Aromanians too, so 3 languages in the first line of the article would be a mess. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:52, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what we've agreed on. Sustain Ktrimi's argument. Nothing further to say. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ktrimi: I'm not the one to judge the Albanian authorities that conducted the census, if you can present decent scholarship that supports your claims that's fine but by claiming that declared Greeks were Aromanians is just speculation. All we can understand from scholarship is that Greeks boycotted the census and hence the real Greek percentage is much larger, in this case more than 10.16%.Alexikoua (talk) 03:06, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know that Greeks in Leskovik boycotted the census? Have you info on a boycott in Leksovik specifically? That some Greeks did not want to participate at the census does not mean such things happened in Leskovik. by claiming that declared Greeks were Aromanians is just speculation Studies that I have seen (among them Baltsiotis) talk about Aromanians in Leskovik, not "Greeks". Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:17, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe a few lines should be added to demographic article where there is an Aromanian community. It must be said how the Greek consul of Korce Theodhoros Ikonomu put pressure on the Aromanians when he declared that they should be registered as Greek.[4] Omonia also made the same statement.[5] HokutoKen (talk) 14:20, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:17, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is sourced that Greeks boycotted the census (see link), but fact is that the Albanian census recognized that at Leskoviki live 10%+ Greeks. It is up to you to find scholarship which claims the opposite: that Greek figures were inflated in this census. So far you provided nothing more the personal speculations that Aromanians being counted as Greeks.Alexikoua (talk) 20:51, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

does this warrant a Greek name on lead based on this rationale? No, it does not anymore. I have changed my opinion as you've may noticed. WP:STICK. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:31, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]