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Talk:Leone Sextus Tollemache/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Longest name

Well, the question arise by her self. If his was not the longest name, whose was? 193.253.199.143 20:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Plenty of people have triple- and quadruple-barrelled surnames. The point is that this chap was just "Tollemache-Tollemache" or even (if you ignore the arbitrary doubling introduced by his father) "Tollemache". -- !! ?? 22:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The Temple-Nugent-Chandos-Brydges-Grenville family famous bore a five-barrelled name DBD 19:23, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Original Research

The Guinness Book of Records (1983 edition) says he had a sextuple-barrelled surname; can we have a cite that says they're wrong? BTW Guinness also states that Fraudatifilius (Latin "son of the defrauded one") and "Leone Sextus Denys" (LSD = £sd) allude to his father's financial woes. jnestorius(talk) 23:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional information.
Leone's father was Ralph Tollemache, who renamed himself Ralph Tollemache-Tollemache; his eldest brother (half-brother, actually) was Sir Lyonel Tollemache, 4th Baronet. Explain to me how Leone ended up with a sextuple-barrelled surname.
I don't know much about the legalities of personal names in Britain in 1884, or indeed in 2007. If Leone's birth certificate included spaces for "first names" and "surname", his father might have inserted 5 names in the former and 6 in the latter just as easily as 9 first names and 2 surnames. OTOH, if the law required a newborn to be registered with the same surname as his father, your argument is valid; though it's just about conceivable that Ralph explicitly changed Leone's name later (I hardly think Leone would have done so himself). jnestorius(talk) 10:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Original research be damned. The sky *is* blue, whatever the Guinness Book of Records says. -- !! ?? 09:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
If the Guinness book did misdescribe the sky, it would be easy to find superior references to refute it. jnestorius(talk) 10:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes... but as most (not all) of our readers have eyes, it's prudent to use ours occasionally too. Otherwise we risk looking rather silly (to those that have eyes, anyway).
It's not OR if it's verifiable by reference to the Guinness Book of Records. Andrewa (talk) 09:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Curious phrasing

""de Orellana" derives from his wife's Spanish ancestry" - having read the subsequent paragraphs, the "his" seems to refer to the father not to the subject of the article, which is a mite confusing. Could this be better phrased? 87.112.19.90 23:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Very amusing but...

is he notable? Where are the independent reliable and verifiable sources? Also agree that the article title should be First Name Last Name, even though less "fun".

If this chap is only of note because of his long name, it might be better to move and refactor this into an article on long names? --kingboyk (talk) 00:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, kingboyk. DarkestMoonlight (talk) 19:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move page, per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article be moved to Leone Tollemache-Tollemache? Greenshed 17:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably, but it would not be half as much fun. -- !! ?? 22:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I second the proposal that the page should be renamed and am listing at WP:RM as I don't feel comfortable unilaterally moving it. --kingboyk (talk) 00:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

If he's mostly notable for his long name, then it should probably stay here. If this isn't his common name, maybe something else would be better. If he's not notable for either, this should probably be deleted. Dekimasuよ! 04:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd leave it alone. It strikes me as at least marginally notable, but as the notability is largely or entirely as a result of his name, this name will also be his common name in terms of WP:NC. Andrewa (talk) 09:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd also say to keep the article named as is. I'm usually in favor of shorter names, but in this case the notability is in the name itself. I'd feel sorry for this guy learning to write his name in primary school. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 12:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Why has this page been moved when there was clearly no concensus to do so? Giano (talk) 16:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Giano - This should have been reopened for discussion! Kernel Saunters (talk) 16:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Moved back, without prejudice to further discussion. BencherliteTalk 22:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

After forgetting to reply the first time I was asked why I moved this, I was asked again today. My apologies, I didn't check the talk page to see a discussion had taken place. Looks sorted now though. :) Craigy (talk) 15:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


This page has been recreated [1] as none of those who had the page on their watchlist were aware of the AFD debate. Giano (talk) 07:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Leone's birth name.....

I have looked up Leone in the England and Wales birth indices and he appears in the records for Q1 1884 as plain old Denis Plantagenet Tollemache. At what point his name got topped and tailed, including the doubling of the Tollemache, and burdened on him is anyone's guess but it is quite clear from the record that his legal name was somewhat pedestrian! For anyone with access to GRO indexes the entry is Leicestershire, Uppingham District, Volume 7a Page 328. correction below I also have a scan of his record from the British Army WW1 Medal Rolls Index Cards which I would be happy to email if anyone is interested in it (reluctant to upload as unclear of copyright), on this one he is Leone T Tollemache. Kind regards, Nancy talk 18:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

At that time extra names were often given at baptism, which were quite legal. The upper classes treated the public records with some disdain often giving just the minimum and very reluctantly too. In 1900, The late Queen Mother's father was fined for not registering her at all until he was forced to. It is the baptismal records which would be interesting to see, these usually occurred within six weeks of the birth. Giano (talk) 19:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh really, that's v interesting. I've done a quick search at the only place I can think of where baptism records are readily available - http://www.familysearch.org - and disappointingly drawn a blank. Going back to the birth registrations it seems that his parents/uncles/aunts were not so restrained when registering earlier children - there is a Mabel H. E. H. B. B. E. V de L. de O. P. T. S. Tollemache registered in Grantham Q2 1872 and a Lyulph Ydwallo O. N. E. L. T. H. E. S. E. C. N. D. P Tollemache Q4 1876, also in Grantham. Extraordinary! Nancy talk 19:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
No you won't most English parish registers fester for years in a damp parish church, and are then shunted (if they are lucky) off to the local county records office, and then if they are even luckier put on microfilm for any interested party to look at, but more often than not, just stored away in a cupboard somewhere. Giano (talk) 19:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Correction, I have misled, Denis Plantaganet is/was not Leone. Leone's birth was registed Grantham Q3 1884 (Vol 7a page 479) under the name Leone Sextus Tollemache-Tollemache. As this is the name on his birth certificate it explains the contraction (Leone T Tollemache) that was used for his Army record. Nancy talk 06:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Do we know exactly waht it said in the Guiness Book of Records? They are renowned for checking their facts very carefully - this is still a wonderful story even if we end up by debunking the myth - that would be a story in itself. Giano (talk) 12:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely. Well, by 1891, Leone (aged six) had acquired his additional monickers (whether as middle names or surname is unclear) as he is ennumerated in the 1891 census return as Leone S D O F F T T D O P Tollemache-Tollemache - the census form is a joy to behold as the poor enumerator struggles to fit each member of the family in to their woefully inadequate allocated space. I rather suspect that Ralph had the most tremendous sense of humour. Nancy talk 15:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Well yes, but not quite as good as Sarah Palin's sense of humour. Giano (talk) 17:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

"A common misconception"

{{fact}} tag added: if the article says it's a common misconception, we need citation(s) explaining how it's a misconception. 86.139.141.237 (talk) 12:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Plantagenet?

All legitimate agnates of the house of Plantagenet died out a long time ago, so was this fellow descended from a royal bastard? Or is it just another random name? 85.210.125.15 (talk) 19:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

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