Talk:Handaberd

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Lekh castle/Handaberd

Pinging previous editors of this article and the Handaberd article: @Finetooth: @SMasters: @Taron Saharyan: @CuriousGolden: @Angel670: @Kevo327: @BSRF: @Darwwin: @Harut111: After a cursory view, this article and the article for Handaberd seem to refer to the same place, with the Lekh Castle article being linked to the Armenian Wikipedia page for Handaberd and the Handaberd article on English Wikipedia being mistakenly linked to Khokhanaberd (near Vank, Nagorno-Karabakh) article on Armenian Wikipedia (which lacks an English Wikipedia equivalent).

The sources used on this article also seem pretty problematic to me in that they are mostly Azerbaijani government or government-linked sources, and with the Azerbaijani government being known for its historical negationism of Armenian history and heritage in the country, they aren't really proper to utilize. If any of you have a good idea on how the articles could be merged, what information seems to be correct and what is not, please feel free to elaborate. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:48, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's the same place. The coordinates for both are completely different places and Azerbaijani Wikipedia has 2 separate pages, one for Lekh Castle and another for Handaberd. They're also listed as separate historical sites on Azerbaijani Ministry of Culture website (Site). So, I personally don't doubt that these are 2 different castles. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:54, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the coordinates for Hanaberd are incorrect on its English article as they're supposed to be 40.05668, 46.531 ; not 40.275556, 46.105556 . — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:57, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian and Persian Wikipedia articles seem to identify them as the same place [1] [2], the pictures depicting the places seem to be the same, and the coordinates for the two English Wikipedia articles both seem be a bit incorrect [3] [4], placed in random places outside of Lev. This is Khokhanaberd, near Vank: [5] and not Handaberd, which is located here: [6]. AntonSamuel (talk) 13:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you're right. I'm not very knowledgeable on these castles. Hope others can help more. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:46, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tagging some more editors familiar with Armenia and Karabakh-related topics: @Buidhe: @Armatura: @Addictedtohistory: @Revolution Saga: @HistoryofIran: @EkoGraf:, do you guys have more relevant information regarding Handaberd/Lekh Castle and its history? AntonSamuel (talk) 13:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The source I have checked so far [7] also identify Handaberd with Lev/Loh castle and have some other details about its history I can add.Mrdo (talk) 09:56, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@AntonSamuel:@CuriousGolden: I have been to Handaberd, which is right next to Knaravan. On the opposite side of Knaravan is what is called by some Handaberd Monastery. I can't tell for sure if the articles are referencing the same place, some of the photos are of the same place (for example this and this), and in the commons, some of the photos are tagged with categories for both names. The GPS coordinates for both articles are incorrect either way. Handaberd is at 40.226957, 46.137879. Handaberd Monastery, which has already been labeled an "Albanian Church" on Google Maps is at 40.22337544034024, 46.14572805987624. Khokhanaberd at least appears to be a completely different fort. --RaffiKojian (talk) 17:12, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RaffiKojian: Thanks for your input! So you mean that Handaberd fortress and Handaberd monastery are two separate sets of structures/ruins? AntonSamuel (talk) 17:34, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@AntonSamuel: Sure! Yes, definitely. You can make them out on the satellite imagery of the 2 GPS coordinates I shared. --RaffiKojian (talk) 17:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

AntonSamuel Sorry for late reply, Anton, I am not familiar with that region. Regards, Armatura (talk) 19:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to merge with Handaberd

Handaberd and Lekh Castle are definitely the same place. The Armenian sources I added to the article^[1]^[2], which speak of Handaberd, place it at the exact same geographical location as the Azerbaijani sources, give largely the same details about its features and and mention Löh fortress (Löh qalası) as one of the alternate names of the place. The page Handaberd, for some reason, seems to link to Khokhanaberd in other languages, which is a completely different structure. Mrdo (talk) 14:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I mostly agree with this, though I do have one confusion as the Azerbaijani Ministry of Culture website lists these 2 objects as different historical sites protected under 2 different numbers, which implies that they're not the same (Site; click the "1" below to get to the list). Any possible explanation for this? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized that the website lists Lekh Castle to be in Qanlıkənd, while listing Handaberd as in Vank. So, perhaps they have mistaken Handaberd for Khokhanaberd? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that must be the case. Khokhanaberd is right by Vank. Perhaps the easiest way is to turn the current Handaberd article into an article for Khokhanaberd, as it's already linked to the non-english articles for Khokhanaberd. Mrdo (talk) 08:56, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

^ Karapetyan, Samvel (1999). Հայ մշակույթի հուշարձանները խորհրդային Ադրբեջանին բռնակցված շրջաններում [Armenian cultural monuments in the regions annexed to Soviet Azerbaijan] (PDF) (in Armenian). Yerevan: Armenian National Academy of Sciences Publishing House. pp. 24–30.
^ Hakobyan, Tadevos Kh.; Melik-Bakhshyan, Stepan T.; Barseghyan, Hovhannes Kh. (2001). Հայաստանի և հարակից շրջանների տեղանունների բառարան [Dictionary of toponymy of Armenia and adjacent territories] (in Armenian). Vol. vol.3. Yerevan: Yerevan State University Publishing House. p. 348. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)

Requested move 26 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Unopposed move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 03:46, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lekh Castle → Handaberd – Due to the link between Handaberd and the nearby Handaberd monastery complex, the Armenian origin of the castle, and the lack of academic sources speaking of "Lex qalası", "Löh qalası" "Lekh Castle" and other variations (based on search in google scholar), whereas some sources come up for "Handaberd" and Russian "Андаберд". Also precedent such as "Askeran Fortress" and "Shusha fortress", as opposed to Armenian versions "Mayraberd" and "Shoshva/Shushi Berd" Mrdo (talk) 18:23, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[karapetyan-1] Karapetyan, Samvel (1999). Հայ մշակույթի հուշարձանները խորհրդային Ադրբեջանին բռնակցված շրջաններում [Armenian cultural monuments in the regions annexed to Soviet Azerbaijan] (PDF) (in Armenian). Yerevan: Armenian National Academy of Sciences Publishing House. pp. 24–30.

[handaberd-2] Hakobyan, Tadevos Kh.; Melik-Bakhshyan, Stepan T.; Barseghyan, Hovhannes Kh. (2001). Հայաստանի և հարակից շրջանների տեղանունների բառարան [Dictionary of toponymy of Armenia and adjacent territories] (in Armenian). Vol. vol.3. Yerevan: Yerevan State University Publishing House. p. 348. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)

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