Talk:Law and Justice/Archives/2024/May

Recent move and why I think it should be reverted

Hi everyone, I just noticed that somebody moved Law and Justice to Law and Justice (Poland). Does anybody knows if it was discussed anywhere? I feel like it's a huge change that should have been discussed. Anyway, I think it should be reverted. Law and Justice in Poland is old and one of the most influential parties in the country, and I dare to say, quite important Europe-wise. Meanwhile Law and Justice (Croatia) was founded 2 months ago, and won almost nothing in elections. I feel like L&J Poland is more dominant and should keep "Law and Justice" name while the disambiguation page should be moved to "Law and Justice (disambiguation)".Artemis Andromeda (talk) 23:47, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I have moved it back. The Polish party is clearly the primary topic IMO. Cheers, Number 57 15:42, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I fully agree with Number 57, that move was questionable and I while I am sure that our Croatian friends had good intentions, the difference here is clear.

For my research on Samoobrona, I also ended up creating a page for all of the splinters from it. One of the splinters is People's National Movement (Poland). I did not make a disambiguation for "People's National Movement", because there already is a party called People's National Movement, which has existed for nearly 70 years now and which is the ruling party in Trinidad and Tobago. Meanwhile the Polish one existed for merely 3 months. Which means it does not warrant a disambiguation and equal treatment. Brat Forelli🦊 15:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Full agreement with Number 57, as per WP:PRITOP.— Autospark (talk) 15:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Pileon agree; the ruling party of Poland is the clear PTOPIC. Queen of ♡ | Speak 23:06, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

There are now more than 1,000 articles linking to "Law and Justice (Poland)" instead of "Law and Justice". That should be corrected. --Checco (talk) 13:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Improper name translation

As a proper name, it shouldn't be translated at all, for example Danish Venstre, Spanish Sumar. Word 'prawo' has several meanings and it's used on purpose. Maybe there should be a side note with more detailed explanation about the name. Wiki is tricky (talk) 13:55, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

It is policy that Wikipedia should reflect WP:reliable sources. English-language reliable sources refer to the party as "Law and Justice" so Wikipedia does, too. If you think, the party name shouldn't be translated, you'd have to tell that to the reliable sources we rely on. Maybe there should be a side note with more detailed explanation about the name. If reliable sources make a point of explaining this, we can, too. Otherwise, we probably shouldn't. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 17:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

What’s is the reliable source in this case? Wiki is tricky (talk) 18:25, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, what do you mean? Robby.is.on (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

What are the English reliable sources that refer to the party as 'law and justice'? Wiki is tricky (talk) 18:53, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I reckon you could check any of the ones currently used in the article. Robby.is.on (talk) 19:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we're not on the same page. My point is that official name of the party is 'prawo i sprawiedliwość' which can be found in the statute of party accepted by court. 'law and justice' is not official name it's English translation commonly used for convenience of English speakers and it's not perfect. 'Prawo i sprawiedliwość' is a brand name and should be used as a page name for the article. 'law and justice' should be a side note not the main name. I've pointed out as an example Danish party 'venstre' where page name of the article uses original Danish name. Wiki is tricky (talk) 11:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Please see WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA. WP:CRITERIA states: "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject."

English-language sources refer to the Danish party as "Venstre" so we use that. For the Polish party, the WP:COMMONNAME is "Law and Justice". Robby.is.on (talk) 16:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Are those instructions valid for all languages or just English? Wiki is tricky (talk) 08:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? Robby.is.on (talk) 09:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean that not every language is consistent with your argumentation. If you check the article for other languages you see that they different path. German wiki for the name of the article uses the original name and it's the second, by number of articles, biggest wiki. I doubt that for German speakers it's convenient to use Polish names but they are trying to be objective. If you look for Venstre in English wiki you find two records one for Danish and one for Norwegian party. Article for Danish has original name but the Norwegian uses translated name. When you check venstre in German wiki both articles are named with original parties names. Even though that all three languages are germanic the German doesn't have word 'venstre'. By knowing how much Germans are protective about their language, they use dubbing everywhere, in this case it seems like being strict to the facts is more important. Having look on Slavic language wikis which use Cyrillic script, inconsistency can be seen. Some translates and some only transliterates. Wiki is tricky (talk) 10:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how other Wikipedias operate. If there are inconsistencies across Wikipedias that would need to be discussed elsewhere. This article Talk page is not the place. Here you need to argue based on the English Wikipedia's existing policies and guidelines. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The thing I'm pointing out could also affect to this article. Could you tell where this topic should be raised? The policies you are referring to are vague and arbitrary as can be seen worldwide. Wiki is tricky (talk) 13:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Most political parties have it's name as a translation 2023 Polish parliamentary election#Lists: League of Polish Families, Self-Defence of the Republic of Poland, Solidarity Electoral Action, Centre Agreement. Your opinion that it is not correct is not relevant as You are mistaking a Proper noun with just common words that can be translated. Proper name is Kukiz'15 or Mirosław Piasecki Candidate for Senator RP. Please understand that this will not change. Other Wikis also use translations es:Ley y Justicia, fr:Droit et justice, pt:Lei e Justiça. YBSOne (talk) 11:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Some does and some doesn't, that's a fact and there is some reason behind it. Name of party is a proper noun because it "identifies a single entity and is used to refer to that entity". Just like people's names. There might be couple of persons named John Smith but there is no category of things that could be called John Smiths. Can you say that there are many 'prawo and sprawiedliwość'? It wouldn't be allowed by law to register second party in the same country with the same name. There is also reason why they start with capital letters. Wiki is tricky (talk) 13:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Wiki is tricky: Wikipedia policies are clear. If you don't agree with WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, you're welcome to argue at those policies' talk pages. Oh, and by the way, I'm seeing that foreign party names also get translated into Polish: [1][2][3], so you should not be surprised at all. — kashmīrī ^TALK 15:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)