Talk:Law and Justice/Archives/2023/October

Regarding the party's ideological position

I recently changed the party's characterisation to right wing to far right. This matches with the United Right page. Zictor23 (talk contribs) 15:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

No reason to remove sources from reliables sources for far right. Panam2014 (talk) 23:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

New ideologies in the infobox

@KlayCax I'm pinging you as requested, and (perhaps) to your shock, it's not the authoritarian part I'm objecting to, but rather "Catholic nationalism". Do you have sources that describe the party as such? And if so, could you add them to the article? I haven't been able to see any such sentence in this article, and describing the party as Christian nationalism does seem like a rather heavy label given how it is something associated with movements such as the MAGA one and apartheid-era Boers. Thanks! Brat Forelli (talk) 15:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I've reverted the changes. There's a notice on page that requires the editors to discuss any intended changes to the "party ideology" parameter prior to making them.

I won't even start that authoritarianism is not a political ideology (read there). — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:07, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you - thanks for the change. I do find it a really weird addition - first of all, PiS had been in power for long 8 years and they still lost (as in, their majority) in a democratic election. So clearly their rule did not turn Poland authoritarian. And if the idea is that PiS is "ideologically authoritarian"... That would be quite difficult to prove.

But that aside, I still object to "Catholic nationalism". Previous label was "Christian right" and that would make a lot of sense that accusing PiS of being "Catholic nationalist". Not only is that not mention anywhere in the article, but it is also quite a... heavy label, to say the least. Brat Forelli (talk) 17:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you - thanks for the change. I do find it a really weird addition - first of all, PiS had been in power for long 8 years and they still lost (as in, their majority) in a democratic election. So clearly their rule did not turn Poland authoritarian. They tried. This is from the article: "After eliminating constitutional checks, the government then moved to curtail the activities of NGOs and independent media, restrict freedom of speech and assembly, and reduce the qualifications required for civil service jobs in order to fill these positions with party loyalists. The media law was changed to give the governing party control of the state media, which was turned into a partisan outlet, with dissenting journalists fired from their jobs. Due to these political changes, Poland has been termed an "illiberal democracy", "plebiscitarian authoritarianism", or "velvet dictatorship with a façade of democracy".". Robby.is.on (talk) 20:04, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, similar stuff could have been written about Poland before PiS[1]: persecution of opposition journalists,[2] suppression of freedom of speech,[3][4] and assembly[5] (all via Google Translate), filling up posts with party nominates. I'm quite sure people didn't feel much difference after PiS won. No, wait, people even voted them in again four years later! — kashmīrī ^TALK 01:20, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

In previous discussions we agreed on national conservatism, christian right, and right-wing populism to be listed in the infobox. I do not know why this was changed. Vacant0 (talk) 18:29, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Several academic and media sources have described Law and Justice as Catholic nationalist. @Brat Forelli:. KlayCax (talk) 02:28, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like the Financial Times did do that - thank you!

I am quite concerned with balance however, because the label of Catholic nationalism was already applied to League of Polish Families, and that was in the 2000s, before they moderated. The second source even juxtaposed them with Law and Justice:

Indeed, two populist parties, the radical-agrarian Self-Defence of the Republic of Poland (Samoobrona Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej) and the Catholic-nationalist League of Polish Families (Liga Polskich Rodzin) are now in a controversial government coalition with the more traditional conservative Law and Justice party (Prawo i Sprawiedliwosc) which itself has been prone to populist tendencies.

So applying the label of the far-right League of Families to PiS does seem like an overreach to me, unless you think you can make the case that PiS is a far-right party.

An advice and a request I would have is that if you happen to have these academic sources, you should use them in the body. Having this in an article would help with making such a case a lot. Brat Forelli (talk) 03:03, 25 October 2023 (UTC)