Talk:Law and Justice/Archives/2023/May

This is an archive of past discussions about Law and Justice. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Far right

Hi

Lots of sources said the party is a far right party:^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]

So we should edit the infobox Panam2014 (talk) 10:16, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

That is correct but a wide consensus on that topic will be needed. Two years ago, a majority of participants were in favour of only keeping right-wing. Vacant0 (talk) 18:11, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Unlike crypto-neofascist "right-wing" LDPJ, PiS is never described as an "ultranationalist". Therefore, I think it is good to keep PiS's political position "right-wing", not "far-right" referring to the LDPJ article. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:55, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

If reliable sources say far-right, Wikipedia should say the same. If sources specifically say that PiS isn't far-right because it isn't ultranationalist, we can summarize those sources as appropriate. We should not publish WP:OR/WP:SYNTH. Grayfell (talk) 21:18, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

However, not only are there sources who describe PiS as center-right, but PiS is generally expressed as right-wing. Mureungdowon (talk) 22:30, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Let's see those sources, then. I don't know what you mean by how the party is "expressed". Wikipedia editors are not expected to try and interpret a party's platform, since as I said, that would be original research. If sources say the party is far-right, Wikipedia will also say it is far-right. Grayfell (talk) 22:55, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

We don't normally include marginal points of view. The vast majority of sources describe PiS as right-wing; sources that focus on its leftist or extreme rightist policies are few and far between. You (or your sources) might be confusing the policies/ideology of PiS with those of the United Right. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:04, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I see enough reliable sources that this cannot be simply dismissed as marginal. Having reviewed some of the previous discussions, I'm pretty underwhelmed. Even experienced editors are opining on how the party should be described compared to other parties or based on specific positions. None of this is sufficient. We go by sources. If a substantial number of sources unambiguously disagree with each other, we explain that disagreement. We do not pick a side based on our own personal opinions. Since far-right is a subset of right wing, this, by itself, isn't a disagreement. All sources are evaluated in context, and that includes both sources which describe the party as far-right, and also those which describe the party as 'centre-right' or similar. Opining on the party's supposed true position without citing those sources is counterproductive. Grayfell (talk) 23:12, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The majority of listed sources are not impartial political analyses carried out by uninvolved political scientists, but are little more than opinion pieces by journalists mostly unfamiliar with the subject, sorry.

For impartial, academic publications see e.g. [1] [2]. We need to rely on academic voices much more than on propaganda. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:07, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Calling reliable sources "propaganda" remains ineffective here. Neither of those sources you add compellingly dispute that PiS is far-right, and I have doubts that the second one is even reliable, as undergraduate papers are typically used only with caution and aren't necessarily useful for representing the academic mainstream.

Note also that Mureungdowon has been blocked for sock puppetry, per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Storm598. I started that investigation because Mureungdowon's arguments were similar to ones made previously by another editor on this talk page, and it quickly became obvious that this wasn't a coincidence. The behavior of those accounts was disruptive, which is likely why sock puppetry was necessary. Grayfell (talk) 20:08, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It's as wise as searching for WP:CHERRY sources that saying that the US Republican Party is "extremist far right"[3][4][5][6][7], or that the UK Conservative Party is "far right" [8][9][10] etc. etc.

See, the WaPo and the Guardian are well-known for their political position, including their strong support to the competing political option. I have no idea why someone would try to present their writing as an impartial, reliable assessment of the political scene. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:47, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Nothing you have said makes those sources any more or less reliable. Reliable sources are often critical of the topics they cover. This is part of what makes them reliable. The left-right spectrum is, by design, simple. Adding original research about what is and is not truly far-right is false precision, at best.

To revisit what I said before, I remain unimpressed by this attempt to make the case based on comparisons to other parties in other countries with other sources being described in other contexts. Since this isn't the place to discuss those other articles, it would be a waste of time to discuss those other sources and those other articles here.

So far, the only plausibly usable sources you have proposed, from the journal Politics in Central Europe, emphasizes that PiS favors "radical nationalism" and rejects multiculturalism, instead having an "Emphasis on national homogeneity and unity based largely on an ethnic conception of the nation". That source says PiS opposes liberalism and specifically liberal-democracy: "In contrast to [Reagan and Thatcher], PiS political practice has been marked by its deployment of radical measures, destructive of existing institutions."[11] Does this source directly support describing the PiS as "far-right"? No. Does it dispute calling it far-right? Absolutely not.

That's what I mean when I say we should not publish WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. If you have a usable source which disputes that this party is far-right, propose it. Using this source to imply that PiS cannot be far-right is original research. I would argue that this is worse than cherry-picking. At least with cherry-picking sources actually support the claims they are attached to. Grayfell (talk) 03:05, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Lots of reliable source said far right so it must be added. --Panam2014 (talk) 12:12, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

References

^
- "Poland Bashes Immigrants, but Quietly Takes Christian Ones". New York Times. 26 March 2019. The far-right Law and Justice party came to power in 2015, at the height of Europe's migrant crisis, after running a campaign that inspired choruses of "Poland for Poles."
- "Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 28 November 2017. Since taking control of both the presidency and the parliament in November 2015, Poland's far-right Law and Justice (PiS) party has swiftly changed the rules for public media, the secret service, education, and the military.
- "EU's top court shows how to tackle autocrats". Financial Times. 27 June 2019. Poland's ultra-conservative Law and Justice (PiS) government followed suit last year.
- "Why will Poland not take in any Muslims?". Al Jazeera America. 8 November 2019. Poland's ultra-conservative Law and Justice Party (PiS) won a second term in office last month, a victory that critics fear will accelerate the country's slide towards authoritarianism.
- "Poland's Government Is Systematically Silencing Opposition Voices". Foreign Policy. 31 May 2019. Today, it is the main voice holding the ruling far-right Law and Justice (PiS) party accountable, while facing constant attacks from that government.
- "How Poland uses foreign lobbyists to fight PR wars and influence U.S. policy". Center for Responsive Politics. 19 February 2019. Since the 2015 election of the far-right Law and Justice party in Poland, the country's history with the Holocaust has become a point of contention with Israel.
- "Zack Blumberg: Europe's far right movements come on strong, but what next?". The Michigan Daily. 11 April 2019. In the 2015 Polish parliamentary election, the far-right Law and Justice Party, or PiS, won with an outright majority (meaning they did not need to form a coalition to govern), something that had not been done in Poland since the fall of communism in 1989.
- "Revealed: dozens of European politicians linked to US 'incubator for extremism'". Open Democracy. 27 March 2019. He had then recently left the far right Law and Justice (PiS) party over its failure to push through a constitutional amendment that would have banned abortion in all cases.
- "What to Make of the European Elections". The Atlantic. 30 May 2019. In Poland, the far-right Law and Justice bested a broad alliance of moderate politicians.
^
- Adam Zamoyski, ed. (2009). Poland: A History. Harper Press. p. 398. The ostensibly far-right PiS was supported by the poor, whom it seduced by its nationalistic , populist and socialist slogans.
- Wojciech Sadurski, ed. (2019). Poland's Constitutional Breakdown. Oxford University Press. p. 3.
- Victoria Carty, ed. (2020). The Immigration Crisis in Europe and the U.S.-Mexico Border in the New Era of Heightened Nativism. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 56. On a campaign slogan of "Poland for Poles," the far-right Law and Justice Party, represented by Jaroslaw Kaczynski, came to power in 2015 (Santora 2019).
- Annik LaFarge, ed. (2020). Chasing Chopin: A Musical Journey Across Three Centuries, Four Countries, and a Half-Dozen Revolutions. Simon and Schuster. p. 22. The "very hard story" of Poland continues in the twenty-first century under the far-right Law and Justice Party, with its nationalist ...
^ "The Rise of Poland's Far Right". Foreign Affairs. 18 December 2017.
^ Traub, James (2 November 2016). "The Party That Wants to Make Poland Great Again". The New York Times Magazine.

[far-right-1] 
"Poland Bashes Immigrants, but Quietly Takes Christian Ones". New York Times. 26 March 2019. The far-right Law and Justice party came to power in 2015, at the height of Europe's migrant crisis, after running a campaign that inspired choruses of "Poland for Poles."
"Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 28 November 2017. Since taking control of both the presidency and the parliament in November 2015, Poland's far-right Law and Justice (PiS) party has swiftly changed the rules for public media, the secret service, education, and the military.
"EU's top court shows how to tackle autocrats". Financial Times. 27 June 2019. Poland's ultra-conservative Law and Justice (PiS) government followed suit last year.
"Why will Poland not take in any Muslims?". Al Jazeera America. 8 November 2019. Poland's ultra-conservative Law and Justice Party (PiS) won a second term in office last month, a victory that critics fear will accelerate the country's slide towards authoritarianism.
"Poland's Government Is Systematically Silencing Opposition Voices". Foreign Policy. 31 May 2019. Today, it is the main voice holding the ruling far-right Law and Justice (PiS) party accountable, while facing constant attacks from that government.
"How Poland uses foreign lobbyists to fight PR wars and influence U.S. policy". Center for Responsive Politics. 19 February 2019. Since the 2015 election of the far-right Law and Justice party in Poland, the country's history with the Holocaust has become a point of contention with Israel.
"Zack Blumberg: Europe's far right movements come on strong, but what next?". The Michigan Daily. 11 April 2019. In the 2015 Polish parliamentary election, the far-right Law and Justice Party, or PiS, won with an outright majority (meaning they did not need to form a coalition to govern), something that had not been done in Poland since the fall of communism in 1989.
"Revealed: dozens of European politicians linked to US 'incubator for extremism'". Open Democracy. 27 March 2019. He had then recently left the far right Law and Justice (PiS) party over its failure to push through a constitutional amendment that would have banned abortion in all cases.
"What to Make of the European Elections". The Atlantic. 30 May 2019. In Poland, the far-right Law and Justice bested a broad alliance of moderate politicians.

[2] "Poland Bashes Immigrants, but Quietly Takes Christian Ones". New York Times. 26 March 2019. The far-right Law and Justice party came to power in 2015, at the height of Europe's migrant crisis, after running a campaign that inspired choruses of "Poland for Poles."

[3] "Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 28 November 2017. Since taking control of both the presidency and the parliament in November 2015, Poland's far-right Law and Justice (PiS) party has swiftly changed the rules for public media, the secret service, education, and the military.

[4] "EU's top court shows how to tackle autocrats". Financial Times. 27 June 2019. Poland's ultra-conservative Law and Justice (PiS) government followed suit last year.

[5] "Why will Poland not take in any Muslims?". Al Jazeera America. 8 November 2019. Poland's ultra-conservative Law and Justice Party (PiS) won a second term in office last month, a victory that critics fear will accelerate the country's slide towards authoritarianism.

[6] "Poland's Government Is Systematically Silencing Opposition Voices". Foreign Policy. 31 May 2019. Today, it is the main voice holding the ruling far-right Law and Justice (PiS) party accountable, while facing constant attacks from that government.

[7] "How Poland uses foreign lobbyists to fight PR wars and influence U.S. policy". Center for Responsive Politics. 19 February 2019. Since the 2015 election of the far-right Law and Justice party in Poland, the country's history with the Holocaust has become a point of contention with Israel.

[8] "Zack Blumberg: Europe's far right movements come on strong, but what next?". The Michigan Daily. 11 April 2019. In the 2015 Polish parliamentary election, the far-right Law and Justice Party, or PiS, won with an outright majority (meaning they did not need to form a coalition to govern), something that had not been done in Poland since the fall of communism in 1989.

[9] "Revealed: dozens of European politicians linked to US 'incubator for extremism'". Open Democracy. 27 March 2019. He had then recently left the far right Law and Justice (PiS) party over its failure to push through a constitutional amendment that would have banned abortion in all cases.

[10] "What to Make of the European Elections". The Atlantic. 30 May 2019. In Poland, the far-right Law and Justice bested a broad alliance of moderate politicians.

[far-right2-2] 
Adam Zamoyski, ed. (2009). Poland: A History. Harper Press. p. 398. The ostensibly far-right PiS was supported by the poor, whom it seduced by its nationalistic , populist and socialist slogans.
Wojciech Sadurski, ed. (2019). Poland's Constitutional Breakdown. Oxford University Press. p. 3.
Victoria Carty, ed. (2020). The Immigration Crisis in Europe and the U.S.-Mexico Border in the New Era of Heightened Nativism. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 56. On a campaign slogan of "Poland for Poles," the far-right Law and Justice Party, represented by Jaroslaw Kaczynski, came to power in 2015 (Santora 2019).
Annik LaFarge, ed. (2020). Chasing Chopin: A Musical Journey Across Three Centuries, Four Countries, and a Half-Dozen Revolutions. Simon and Schuster. p. 22. The "very hard story" of Poland continues in the twenty-first century under the far-right Law and Justice Party, with its nationalist ...

[12] Adam Zamoyski, ed. (2009). Poland: A History. Harper Press. p. 398. The ostensibly far-right PiS was supported by the poor, whom it seduced by its nationalistic , populist and socialist slogans.

[13] Wojciech Sadurski, ed. (2019). Poland's Constitutional Breakdown. Oxford University Press. p. 3.

[14] Victoria Carty, ed. (2020). The Immigration Crisis in Europe and the U.S.-Mexico Border in the New Era of Heightened Nativism. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 56. On a campaign slogan of "Poland for Poles," the far-right Law and Justice Party, represented by Jaroslaw Kaczynski, came to power in 2015 (Santora 2019).

[15] Annik LaFarge, ed. (2020). Chasing Chopin: A Musical Journey Across Three Centuries, Four Countries, and a Half-Dozen Revolutions. Simon and Schuster. p. 22. The "very hard story" of Poland continues in the twenty-first century under the far-right Law and Justice Party, with its nationalist ...

[3] "The Rise of Poland's Far Right". Foreign Affairs. 18 December 2017.

[4] Traub, James (2 November 2016). "The Party That Wants to Make Poland Great Again". The New York Times Magazine.

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